What The Hell Is Michael Jamin Talking About?

On this week's episode, we have music manager Dave Rose (Lit, Marcy Playground, Stryper and many many more) and we discuss his journey starting out as a bassist and what it’s like managing today vs. the pre-digital age. Tune in for so much more.Show NotesDave Rose Agency: https://www.deepsouthentertainment.com/Dave Rose on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@daverosedeepsouthDave Rose on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/daverosedeepsouth/ A Paper Orchestra on Website: https://michaeljamin.com/bookA Paper Orchestra on Audible: https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestraFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptDave Rose:I'm so amazed that people pay me to do this. I was doing it long before I knew you could make money at it. And so the pinnacle for me is really that this continued joy of the business of musicMichael Jamin:You are listening to. What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase And to support me in this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show.Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. And today I got a special guest for you. Musicians out there. You don't deserve any of this. This is a wonderful treat for all of you. Don't say I never gave you anything. I'm here with Dave Rose from Deep South Entertainment and he is a career music manager. But Dave, first of all, welcome. I got a billion questions for you, but did you start off, are you a musician as well?Dave Rose:Thank you. Good to be here, Michael. Man, mutual admiration all the way around. This is exciting to be here. But yes, I started out as a musician. I was a, yes, I started out as a musician. I mean, yes and no, there's a story, but I became a musician out of necessity.Michael Jamin:How does that work? No one becomes, that's like the last thing you become out of necessity.Dave Rose:I know. Isn't that funny? So I was managing, and I very much put that in air quotes. Say I was a freshman in college and I had a local band decide they wanted me to be their manager. I was showing up at all their gigs and selling merchandise and unloading the van and doing all the things that I thought I could do to help. I just loved being around music. One day they said to me, would you be our manager? And I didn't know what the hell a manager was. I still don't. But they said, well, you could start by getting us some gigs. And that's not what a manager does, by the way. But that's when you're in college, that's what you do.Michael Jamin:That's not what a manager does then. Okay, you have to elaborate on that when weDave Rose:Can get into that for sure. So I got 'em 20 gigs and we had it all booked up and we're all ready to go. And we were two weeks out from the very first gig, big string of shows, playing skate ranches and pool parties and all the places that you play when you're just starting out anywhere and everywhere that'll give you room. And they came me and they said, our bass player quit and he's moving, so we need to cancel these gigs and we can no longer, we will audition new bass players later. I said, like, hell, you are, I've been watching this. It doesn't look like it's that hard to play bass, so here's what we're going to do. I'm going to cram myself in the basement with you, Mr. Guitar player, and you're going to teach me all the parts to these songs.We're going to go play these 20 shows with me as the bass player, and when we come back, you can audition bass players. That's how. And they were like, yeah, that's not how that works. I said, well, that's the way this is going to go. And so they did. I crammed myself in the basement and learned to play bass in two weeks, and it was rock and roll. It was three chord rock and roll. Wasn't real hard, but apparently I picked it up pretty easily and I played bass in a band for the next 10 years, but that should have been my first indication that I was not a musician. I learned how to play just to keep a band.Michael Jamin:But you must, if you played for 10 years, you're good enough.Dave Rose:Yeah, I mean I figured it out along the way.Michael Jamin:Wow. But then at some point you went to full-time management.Dave Rose:Yeah. Yeah. I ultimately segued into full-time management, and that was, I started this company putting out compilation CDs. That was a big thing. I started in 1995 and in the mid nineties, these sort of mix tape CDs were a big thing. And I would find local and regional bands from around the area and put 'em on this compilation CD and put it out and see what happens. But from the very first CD we put out, we had one of the biggest hits of the nineties, a song called Sex and Candy by Marcy Playground. And my intention was I would stick my band right in the middle of all these big regional bands or bands that I thought was going to be big and maybe my band would get some attention too. And I think nine bands on that first compilation got record deals accept my band. So that was kind of my moment of realizing, yeah, I'm definitely not, I'm way better on the business side of things.Michael Jamin:So then tell me then what a manager music manager does exactly if they don't get you work.Dave Rose:Sure. It's very different, I would guess, than in the film and TV business. And I would love to learn this from you, but I'm guessing in the film and TV business, the person that gets you work is the agent. Is thatMichael Jamin:Yes, the agent and not the manager and I have Right,Dave Rose:And that's what it is here. So a manager in music, I'm put it in the simplest terms, but it's like if the entire career is a wheel, the manager and the artist are in the center of that wheel. And all these spokes are things like booking agents and publicists and record labels and publishing companies and people that do film and TV music and all the accountants, the crew, all the thing, the attorneys that make the machine, the wheel turn. The manager is making sure all of those things are working. So it's sort of like being, I compare it to this, it's being the CEO of a band, but if you're,Michael Jamin:I'm sorry, go on.Dave Rose:That's all right. The band is owned by the band or the artist is owned by the, they own their company, but they retain an artist manager commission, an artist manager to manage their career.Michael Jamin:But if that band is going on tour, are you expected to go with them?Dave Rose:Only if you're in country music.Michael Jamin:Okay. Why is that?Dave Rose:It is different. Country music is one of the few genres that still very much lives and dies by the radio, and so the relationships with local radio is very important. So a manager should be there to kind of nurture those radio relationships from town to town to town. Now, if you're in rock and roll or hip hop or almost any other genre, Americana folk bluegrass, most managers do not travel with the band,Michael Jamin:But a touring manager would No,Dave Rose:A tour manager. Exactly. A tour manager does. And the tour manager is exactly, it sounds, it's the manager of the tour. So it deals with getting the bus from point A to point B and where do we park and what do I mean? It's way more than that, but it's the finance of the tour and they report to the artist manager.Michael Jamin:Now over the years, I've heard you mention this, you have a very, very big it's successful TikTok page, which is how I found you. You've managed a bunch of really big acts, right?Dave Rose:I've had some, yes. I've had a lot of, and I still do have a lot of big acts. It's been just amazing. I keep waiting for somebody to knock on my door and go, okay, gigs up. Time to get a real job.Michael Jamin:Can you share some of 'em with us?Dave Rose:Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So I got my start with Marcy Playground, and I'm still with them 26, 7 years later. But one of my first big clients was the piano player, Bruce Hornsby, who was in the Grateful Dead, and he had a bunch of hits in the eighties and nineties, but he's had a very, very unique career. He is done albums with Ricky Scaggs and Jazz Records, but Little Feat, the classic rock band of, they're just so iconic. The band Lit who had one of the biggest rock hits of the nineties, that song, my Own Worst Enemy, some of the country acts that I've worked with, Laney Wilson, who just won a Grammy, and yeah, I worked with the band six Pence, none The Richer who had the mega hit Kiss Me. And so yeah, it's been not to just, one of the bands I've been with the longest 23 years is an eighties rock band from LA called Striper. They kind of came up in the ranks with Moley Crewe and Bon Jovi and that kind world of big hair and Sunset Strip and all the things of Hollywood, but they're a Christian man. They sing about Jesus. So they're very, very different than that.Michael Jamin:At this point. Are new bands finding you or are you reaching out to them? How does that work?Dave Rose:Yeah, they usually find me at this point, I don't develop a lot of new acts anymore, mostly because I've just been doing it a long time and developing a new act from garage to Grammy is not only risky, but it's a long runway. And when you've been sort of doing it for as long as I have, and I don't mean any disrespect to anything on this, but you don't need to take that risk anymore.Michael Jamin:But it seems like on TikTok, it seems like you're talking to those people.Dave Rose:I am taking my audience on TikTok is very much the audience that is sort of just trying to figure out the next steps of a very complicated career path.Michael Jamin:But then why are you talking to them now if that's not, I assume it's because that's what you're looking for, but No,Dave Rose:Yeah, no, that's a great question. The reason I'm doing it is very pure, because it is hard to do this, and there's a lot of bad advice flying around out there. And to some extent, I wanted to get on there and level the playing field and just let people know the reality of how the business works. No, I'm not at all seeking to manage sort of startup band. I do some coaching that I'm more than willing to help them in. I'll do these 30 minute sessions where I can really, really fast track things for them, help them avoid years and years of mistakes in a very quick conversation. It's a lot like the stuff that you do in the sense that I'll meet an artist from Topeka, Kansas or wherever and how they're learning stuff that they would not learn anywhere else, only because nobody's ever told 'em.See Michael, something I think we ought to talk about at some point in here is part of why it's difficult to get a manager in the music business is because of how a manager gets paid. Okay, how did they get paid? I think that's an interesting dynamic that a lot of just, certainly a lot of people, but even a lot of artists don't know how that works. So how does that work then? Yeah, so a manager is paid by commission, so it's strictly a commission base. So if you are an artist and you go out and you play a show or you sell a T-shirt or make some sort of income, a percentage of that income is paid to your manager, includes the record deal, includes everything. It typically includes, and sort of depending on where you are in that artist's career, it includes most every aspect of their entertainment career, including what about royalties?It does include royalties, particularly if those royalties were ones that you helped them earn. If you get them a record deal and they continue to earn royalties either through radio play or whatever, you would earn a commission on that. So you're earning commissions on these revenue streams, and that's typically about 15%. So if you think about managing, like we talked about the wheel, all those different spokes in the wheel, maybe for each act that I manage, that's probably 150 decisions a day that we're making on behalf of that artist. So you can't manage a lot of acts as an individual. You can have a company like we do that manages, has managers that manage acts, but generally speaking, you can't manage a lot of acts. There's a lot that goes into a typical day of that. So the commission, if you just break it down to making a living, an artist has to be making significant money for it to be worth that manager's time to spend the bulk of their day managing their career.So when you've got an artist that's just starting out, and I want to get to why it's hard to get advice when you've got an artist that's just starting out and they're making no money and are making very little money, I don't know, 20, 30, 40, $50,000 a year, you think about that 15% of that is $5,000 a year maybe for the manager. So it's really not enough to say, I'm going to dedicate my life to you, which is really what it takes. So as a result, it's almost impossible for an artist to meet a manager. It's really hard to meet a manager. Our time is paid by commission. So that's why I get on TikTok and talk about the things I talk about because I was that bass player in a band not knowing what the hell I was doing, making every mistake under the sun. And I'm very, I don't know, very genuinely just trying to help people not make those mistakes.Michael Jamin:Now, you said something a while ago on one of your tiktoks, and I was surprised you don't come down. I thought everyone was supposed to hate Spotify and streaming because of the way, in my opinion, in my point of view, artists are being raped. I mean, that's how I see it. But you don't feel that way?Dave Rose:I don't. I mean, do I think it's a fair payment system? No, I think there's a lot of improvement that needs to happen. Part of what I think is the imbalance is the payments between an artist, a songwriter, and the record label. You see, when a song is on Spotify, those are the three main parties that sort of have to get paid a record label, an artist and a songwriter. And the songwriters are the ones that are really struggling in this time.Michael Jamin:From what I pay on what people pay on Spotify, I gladly pay double for what? I mean, I get every album I want to listen to at any time through the month, almost anything. And if I pay double, I still feel like the artists wouldn't be making not even close to what they used to make.Dave Rose:Well, yes. Again, we got to remember, there's three buckets. We're dealing with the artist, the record label, and the songwriter. And in some cases, that's the same person in all three of those buckets. If you go out and self-release a record, and you've written that record and you performed on that record, and you do millions and millions of streams on that record, you're making very respectable.Michael Jamin:I thought, again, I come at this completely ignorant. I know so little about it, but I think I saw a video by Snoop Dogg saying his album was streamed a billion times and he made 10 Sense or something.Dave Rose:That's a famous video. That video circulated a lot. And what is missed most often in that conversation is the difference in those three buckets. My gut tells me, and I don't know Snoop Dogg's complete history, but he probably does not own that recording. So a big chunk of that money that's being earned probably went to his record label, and I don't know, maybe he wrote the song, maybe he didn't, if he didn't write the song, he's missing that bucket of income, or maybe he did write this. So my gut tells me there's more to that story. SoMichael Jamin:Misunderstand this, which is fine.Dave Rose:I dunno, the full snoop do the inner workings of his business, but my gut tells me there's more to that story because I know no shortage of independent artists making a great, great living, really. But the thing that's different, and the thing that we got to think about that's different from say 2005, say 20 years ago, the biggest difference is the revenue streams now are very multiple. I mean, I met a band the other day that's doing insane six figures just on YouTube.Michael Jamin:On YouTube ad. So they put their music and they make ads on YouTube. Exactly, because they're not sellingDave Rose:It. That's right. The ad revenue is making four members a living, a very good living.Michael Jamin:See, it was my impression that, okay, so 20 years ago, a band would go on tour and after the show, they'd sell okay, merch, but they'd also sell the cd. If you want to listen to music, they sell. But now no one's going to buy that cd.Dave Rose:They do. They very much buy, well, more so they buy vinyl. The vinyl buy vinyl. And what's crazy, I was just on the phone with a head of a record label and he was talking about the rapid increase in the number of cassettes they're selling, which is crazy. It's just such a, I tell people this all the time, but you can't autograph a stream, so you're going to always need to have something that people can take home. I mean, I read the other day of all the vinyls sold only like 37% get listened to, but vinyl cells are through the roof, really. They buy the product, they get it autographed, they keep it as a collector's item, and then they stream it on Spotify.Michael Jamin:But why do you feel vinyl as opposed to a cd, which is just vinyl, but smaller and better quality? Why is that?Dave Rose:Yeah, I think CDs, I mean, also depending on the genre, certain genres are very cd, like country. People still buy CDs. If you go into a Walmart and rural America, you're going to see a lot of country in there. But yeah, I think vinyl partially because it's just big and cool to hold, andMichael Jamin:Yeah, you right, because not a lot of people have record. A lot of people don't even how to use a record like we do, butDave Rose:Yeah. Well, I mean you'd really be surprised, Michael. The vinyl industry is insanely huge.Michael Jamin:Interesting.Dave Rose:And really among kids, I mean, the kids are buying vinyl. If you go into an Urban Outfitters, which is obviously geared toward 20 somethings, they have a whole record section in there, whole vinyl section in their stores, and they sell record players at Urban Outfitters.Michael Jamin:Right, right. I always thought that was ironic. I didn't realize that they're making money that way. I know. I thought they were museum pieces.Dave Rose:Well, probably to some they are. Wow. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Now, do you specialize in any kind of genre of music or does that matter toDave Rose:You? I'm a rock and roll guy at heart, but I've done a lot of work in sort of songwriter rock. I've certainly had my share of country acts, although it's not my preferred genre, I've not done a lot in bluegrass, and I've not done a lot in hip hop, which is strange because if this is a visual thing, I'm staring at a Tupac Black behind me. So I say I don't really work in hip hop, but then I got to Tupac Black up here.Michael Jamin:I have a question for you. I don't think you're going to be able to answer this one. I don't know if there's an answer. ProbablyDave Rose:Not.Michael Jamin:So Daryl Hall has a show that I happen to catch sometimes. I think he shoots in his basement or something. You must've seen it, where he brings in friends, like eighties stars or whatever, Darryl'sDave Rose:House,Michael Jamin:Darryl's house, and he looks cool. He's got a blazer on, he's got dark glasses, and I'm like, okay, he looks cool. But then sometimes he brings in other men his age, which is whatever, 70, whatever it is, I don't know. And they're dressed and they're stars from the eighties, and they're dressed like they used to dress in the eighties. I wonder, how are aging rockstar supposed to dress? Do you have to answer this to your clients? YouDave Rose:Talk about this. Oh, yeah. We talk about, I mean, I tell artists this all the time, including my big artists. The biggest mistake you can make with a tire fashion, whatever you want to call it, is to not talk about it. You have to talk about it. A matter of fact, I recommend a band sometimes, particularly new bands, take a night and don't bring your instrument, get in a room together and talk about what you want This look to look like. It is so incredibly important and,Michael Jamin:But do you have an opinion on what it should be then? Should it stay what it was, or should it evolve?Dave Rose:I think it's interesting, like this eighties band striper that I talked about that I manage from the eighties, that it's the same guys 40 years later. Back in the day, there was a lot of hair and makeup and spandex pants and all the things that, and so no, they don't wear that anymore, and they don't wear the makeup and the teased hair, but they do an age appropriate version of that rock and roll gear and rock. ItMichael Jamin:Seems weird because the fans are coming to see their band. The fans don't want the band to age, but unfortunately the band aged.Dave Rose:Yeah.Michael Jamin:How do you give them what they want? It seems like, it seems like a really hard thing to struggle with.Dave Rose:It is. It's a tough thing. And the good ones, the ones that are really good at this, are good at sort of making fun of the, well, sort of making the audience one with them and sort of we're all aging together and this is welcome to us 40 years later. What I think we don't want is our aging rock stars to show up in sweatpants and a hoodie. We want 'em to show up at least caring and some resemblance of days gone by without being a carbon copy of that, because you shouldn't try to be,Michael Jamin:For the most part though, I imagine they're playing whatever their greatest hits, the songs that made them big, and the people, the fans, that's what they want to hear. And I imagine if I were a musician who's played the same song 30,000 times, I might get tired of this.Dave Rose:You would think, and here's what happens to a lot of them. Some do, yeah. They usually don't get tired of it. They get tired of being known only for that. There are some artists that have two or three mega hits so big you can't even compare. And as a result, there's no way for their catalog of deep catalog of hundreds of songs to sort of surface. It's why the band little feat that I worked with, they never really had a radio hit, and they always talked about the best thing that ever happened to us was never having a radio hit because we never had this super high. Instead, our fans consume our entire catalog. It's a little bit like the Grateful Dead in that sense. Grateful Dead never had this mega hit. They just had a lifestyle.Michael Jamin:Do they complain to you about this, though? Is this something they talk about?Dave Rose:Yeah, I mean, one thing that's interesting is when you're on stage and you're playing a 60, 75 minutes set or whatever, and you're playing songs from your catalog, one thing that you don't think about a lot, but when they hit that big hit, when they go into playing that big song that everybody knows of any song in that, it's almost like it's for them, it's a welcomed break in the set. Meaning when you're playing a new song, you're sort of working really hard to try to win this audience over on this new material or this unfamiliar material. So maybe if you're a rock band, you're probably moving around a little more. If you're whatever kind of band you are, you're just really giving it all to win over this crowd. But when you kick into a mega hit that they've heard a million times over, it's a moment you can just breathe.Michael Jamin:I see.Dave Rose:And go, okay, I'm good for three and a half minutes here. They're going to go nuts. No matter what we do.Michael Jamin:I would not have thought of. That's interesting you brought that up. I would not have thought it, but I would've thought it the other way around that like, oh, fuck, I got to play this again. ButDave Rose:No. Yeah, no. I do have a few artists that feel that way. One of my favorite moments in that regard was Sean Colvin. She's a kind of a folk songwriter artist, and she did end up having a big hit called Sonny Came Home, and that came out, I guess in the, I'm going to get the dates wrong, but that was a huge hit. Sonny came home and I went and saw Sean Colvin one night in concert, and she comes out on stage packed amphitheater, and she says, we're going to go ahead and play this song for those of you that just came to hear this, so you can go ahead and leave and the rest of us can have a good time.Michael Jamin:Is that what happened though?Dave Rose:That's why she opened the show when Sonny came home, and then what happened? I'm paraphrasing what she said there, but it was generally that for those of you that just came to hear the hit, let's play it. You can go about the way and sort of the implication was the rest of us who came to hear the entire catalog can now enjoy the show. DoMichael Jamin:You think people walked out? I mean,Dave Rose:Nobody left nobody. I was there. Nobody left. And that's a bold move. Yeah. I love that about her. And that's kind of the way a lot of artists feel about a big hit is like they don't dislike it. They love what it's brought to their career. They just dislike it being the only thing people may want to consume.Michael Jamin:I think about art, and you must have these conversations with your artists is like, how do you reinvent yourself on the next album when audience, your audience doesn't really want you to reinvent you. They want what they have, but if you give 'em the same, it's also like, yeah, we already have this. It seems so incredibly daunting to come up with another album that works,Dave Rose:Man. It is. And I got to say, in your world, I would think the same thing. How do you write the next episode given the audience what they want, but still keeping itMichael Jamin:Well, that's when they get mad at you. That's when they say the shows jumped the shark. Or they say, the show died four years ago. JumpDave Rose:The Shark. Is that aMichael Jamin:Term? Oh, yeah. I'm sorry. You haven't heard it. That refers to an episode of Happy Days when Henry Winkler, they put him on water skis and he had to jump a shark tank. I rememberDave Rose:That.Michael Jamin:And he was wearing a leather jacket when you saw Fonzi jumping a Shark tank in a leather jacket. You go, all right, the show is Jump a Shark.Dave Rose:Oh, I got to remember that. Oh, yeah.Michael Jamin:It's a famous term. Yeah, I worked with Henry years ago and we spoke about that.Dave Rose:Oh, really?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. It's funny.Dave Rose:What did you work on with him?Michael Jamin:It was a show called Out of Practice with Henry Winkler and Stocker Channing and Ty Burrell, and they were the three main leads, and Henry's like the sweetest man in Hollywood. But we spoke a little bit about thatDave Rose:Being a child of sort of growing up in the eighties. I'm going to be remiss if we don't at least, and I'm sorry, man, talk about asking somebody about their hit. Please tell me about Beavis and Butthead for a minute. I mean, I don't care what you tell me aboutMichael Jamin:There's, there's very little I can tell you. So I was friend, this is when they brought the show back. It's been on three times already. And the second iteration, our friends, John Altro and Dave Krinsky, they were the showrunners. They created Silicon Valley and now they're running the second beavers. But that was so they needed freelance writers. It was a really low budget thing, and they reach out to us and the money was terrible, but we just had a break in our, we were in between shows, so the timing was perfect. They said, do you want to write some Beavis? But so we pitched them maybe 10 ideas. They bought four, but that was it. I mean, that was kind of the involvement. Then we went to see Mike Judge, we went to the record session. So we'll go to the booth and we're all watching videos, and we we're literally standing over his shoulders watching music videos, just pitching jokes about what beef is, and Bud would say, and then he would go into the booth, do the voice, and come back out. That was my involvement. So it was only we because wanted, it was just a fun experience. It was not forDave Rose:Sure. Absolutely. What a, but again, I bet coming into it sort of midstream like that, what an even harder job. You've got hits. You want to give the audience what they expect, but you also want to give them what they don't expect. I mean, how you do that as an artist is hard.Michael Jamin:And do you have these conversations with your bands?Dave Rose:Absolutely. Yeah. Yes. Because the funny thing about music is none of us, if we sit down and listen to our Spotify list or whatever, and we have our catalog of music, none of us listen to one kind of music. We listen to all kinds of music, jazz and reggae and rock and whatever. We all have a mixture of taste, and depending on our mood, we want to explore that music. It's the same with artists. They don't think in one genre. They're artists. They're thinking all over the place. So it's really hard for them creatively to stay in this lane. It's why you see so many artists, I'm going to try to do a country record, or I'm going to try to do some other exploratory record, and that's okay. If you're Prince, you look like a genius. If you're Prince, if you're just starting out, you look confused. I don't know what I want to do, so I'm going to do a jazz song. So yeah, we do talk a lot about trying to stay, it's a terrible term for art, but trying to stay on brand with both your look and your sound and your music and the audience. When they go to buy a Bruce Springsteen record, they don't want to hear a jazz record. They want to hear good American rock and roll songs,Michael Jamin:But they also don't want to hear, I think you too may struggle with this. I think they got their sound, and it's like, all right, but I've already heard it.Dave Rose:They do struggle with that. Yeah, they've had a couple, and almost any act has their moment of when they look back on it, it's kind of like, what was I thinking?Michael Jamin:Right. I mean, to me, it sounds like I haven't listened to it in a while, but at one point I got an album there. I just thought it just sounded like every other, and they were amazing in the, I don't know, it seems like a very hard balancing act. How do you do this? How do you ItDave Rose:Is. It's why bands like Kiss, for example. I don't, I can't remember when. I think 20, I don't know. It was over 20 years since they recorded new music, just because they didn't want to attempt, they didn't top what they had done.Michael Jamin:I heard an interview by Cures for Fears, and they were talking about, and I didn't know this because really, I don't know the inside of music at all, but they were talking about how at one point, the album, I guess mid-career, that they were assigned a music producer and the producer kind of determined the sound. And I was, I surprised. I really thought that that's what they did. I thought they wrote all their songs and it said they were hearing songs written for them. I did not know that. I was really surprised. They are songwriters.Dave Rose:They are songwriters. And sometimes when a band or an artist hits that moment of how do we feed our fan base, but stay ahead of things, sometimes a good producer, outside writer can help move that along.Michael Jamin:On their last album, they shunned all that. They did it themselves, and I thought the album was terrific.Dave Rose:Yeah, I mean, I haven't heard it, but I've heard people say that,Michael Jamin:Oh, you haven't.Dave Rose:It's probably because they really went for the middle lane that they developed all along with their fan base. I mean, they're a brilliant act with an incredible catalog.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I mean, in the management world, at least in tv, in film, and for agents as well, it's not untypical for atypical for a writer or an actor to get to some point. Then they leave their manager or their agent, maybe they outgrow them or something happen. And how do you reconcile that?Dave Rose:Yeah, that happens all the time. In the music business, we call it the revolving door of managers and artists. I've had some come and go and come back and go,Michael Jamin:Really? Do you not take it personally then, orDave Rose:One of the things you have to do is truly not take it personally. And sometimes it's sort of like I look at it like this. If you were to own a restaurant and that restaurant grows and changes and involves a different manager, has different skill sets. We're not all graded everything. We're good at certain things. And if you happen to be at the place in your career to where you're with a manager that is good at the things you need, that's a perfect relationship. If you happen to go outside of that, then you might need someone with a different skillset. And oftentimes a manager is the first to say, I feel like I've taken you as far as I can.Let's find something new here. It's no different than a football coach or a restaurant manager or any sort of leader of a company. Sometimes for a lot of reasons, the stars align and sometimes they just don't. And if they don't, it's usually pretty recognizable to both parties. And there's very rarely, I mean, you certainly hear the stories both online and elsewhere of manager artists fallout, but by and large, I'm friends with every artist I've ever worked with, and I've never had a, I mean, I don't manage Bruce Hornsby anymore, but I just went backstage, went to his show and hung out with him after the show. And we talked about old times and had a good hang together. But there was a point in his career where I was and a point in my career where we just weren't at the same place, and I don't even mind sharing that. Yeah, please. He had been on RCA records for about 25 years, and the top brass at RCA was kind of changing, again, the revolving doors of executives at a record label, it was Tom. And so his life at RCA, his deal and relationship at RCA started to come to an end.And I was really, really, I had two other bands at RCA. I was sort of really inside the walls of RCA records at the time, and so I wasn't really best suited for the next step in his career, which was to find a new label, a New York based label. I was very much Nashville centric at that point, and it was just, we came to a place where I felt like for him to go where he needed to go, he needed somebody else, and he felt the same. AndMichael Jamin:It was, but that's another thing, because I see with my management, they have relationships at studios, and as you do have relationships and there, at the end of the day, you have your interests, and it is not like you're going to burn bridges with these studio that you have relationships with. You can only fight so much because of what you have with your other clients, right?Dave Rose:That's right. Yeah. It is probably like your business. It's a very small business at a certain level, a very small business. There's not a lot of, you're going to run into everybody again, and at

On this week's episode, we have actor Cynthia Mann Jamin (Friends, Ahh! Real Monsters, Angry Beavers and many many more) and we discuss her journey as an actor and director. We also talk about how the two of us met as well as what it’s like working together. Tune in for so much more.Show NotesCynthia Mann Jamin IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0542699/Cynthia Mann Jamin on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/prime-video/actor/Cynthia-Mann/amzn1.dv.gti.ca37e830-61b1-44db-8fe5-979422acb482Cynthia Mann Jamin Shop: https://www.twirlygirlshop.com/A Paper Orchestra on Website: https://michaeljamin.com/bookA Paper Orchestra on Audible: https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestraFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptCynthia Mann Jamin:If it wasn't something that was organic for you, it would be torture trying to become this person that you think other people want to see, or you got to position yourself like this other person over here. But it really is about finding your unique voice because that's all we have.Michael Jamin:You are listening to What The Hell Is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase. And to support me in this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show.Michael Jamin:Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode. I have a very special guest today, the very beautiful and talented, I'm going to call her Cynthia Mann, although she's now currently Cynthia Mann Jamin and she's my wife and Cynthia. I met years ago, I was a writer on a show called Just Shoot Me, and she was the guest star and she was a working actor and she worked on many shows including she was a recurring on Friends. She had, I dunno, five or so or six episodes on Friends Recurring on Veronica's Closet, Seinfeld, er Suddenly Susan Will and Grace, all those shows of the nineties, all those musty TV shows. She did almost all of them. And now she is the director and producer of my one man show as well as the audio book. So I thought a paper orchestra. So she did all of that. So I thought we would talk to her about that and about her experience working in Hollywood as well as directing and producing my audiobook for all of you people who aspire to do something similar. Hello, Cynthia.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Hi Michael.Michael Jamin:Hello. My beautiful wife. She's in the other room. We're pretending we live far apart, but actually we live very close to each other.Cynthia Mann Jamin:You could say we're roommates.Michael Jamin:This is my roommate, Cynthia. So thank you so much for doing this. Thank you, most of all for producing and directing my show. And I don't know, where do we begin? What should we start with?Cynthia Mann Jamin:Well, I think it's, the thing that's interesting is people might want to know how is it working together and why do we work together?Michael Jamin:I don't have an answer for that. You're cheap labor. That's why we work. I don't have to pay you. Why is that? Why we work together?Cynthia Mann Jamin:Well, it's funny because it goes all the way back to when we were first dating. I think if you want to talk about that because Go ahead. Well, we love doing projects together.Michael Jamin:Projects, we call them projects. How the Canadians say It. Project,Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah, projects. And when we first met it was kind of like, well, we had this common interest of he's a writer, I'm an actor, but it's like you can't sit around all day and just write and act. So we would find common things that we like to take walks, we like to do hiking. I taught you about Run Canyon, you were running in the flats. And I'm like, what the hell are you doing? Why are you running in the flats? Why don't you run up a hill?Michael Jamin:I didn't realize you could. It was so steep. And then you said you ran it. So I said, oh, alright. I guess I could try running it. ICynthia Mann Jamin:Totally ran it. I ran it all the time. I had, I had really muscular legs. YouMichael Jamin:Did. ICynthia Mann Jamin:Know you did. Yeah. And I still do. But yeah, so we would find little things to do and I would take you around LA and get you lafy and teach you what Celestial seasoningsMichael Jamin:AndCynthia Mann Jamin:Stuff. Yes, teaMichael Jamin:Is and also Whole Foods and Mrs. Gooch's. Mrs.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Gooch's. Yeah. This is way back. WeMichael Jamin:Would go to all this. She didn't approve of the supermarkets that I went to. So youCynthia Mann Jamin:Can go in there. I'm not going to get my food there you there though.Michael Jamin:And so many ways You helped me a lot with art because you are an artist. You were a starving artist when I met you.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Oh yes. Yeah. Well, barely getting by. I would say would barely getting by. I've had every survival job you can think of. I've done singing telegrams with the monkey that goes like this, and I've done sold shoes and I've waitressed and I've done a million survival jobs. So in my thirties I finally started to get acting jobs and I was a professional dancer for a while. And Grit didn't go to college right away, only finished two years of it. Later in my thirties when I met Michael, I was going to college and working and going on auditions and all of that. And when I met Michael, it was one of those crazy auditions where the casting director, Deb Burki, who I'm forever grateful for, she brought me in just to the callback. She didn't even read me first because we had had a relationship and she always appreciated my work and thought, oh, this is good for Cynthia.Let me just bring her in straight to the producers. And I remember Steve Levitan was there, probably Andy Gordon and Eileen because it was their episode and Eileen Khan and I got that job. She called me the next day and just said, yeah, you got it. And I was like, oh, yay. I'm so excited. And they only booked me for three days. So when I went on the set, it was at Universal because I didn't really know what Just Shoot Me was. It was a new show and I don't think it was airing yet. It was just the first six episodes. So nobody really knew what it was about or the tone or anything. And I just went in, did my scene, went home prepared to come back the next day for shoot day. Really? And you guys sent me a script at nine in the morning or something like that and said, we rewrote your scene because we found a better way to write this scene. I don't know, you can tell me the behind the scenes of that. I don't really know why you did that.Michael Jamin:I don't really remember why that was rewritten. It was a long time ago.Cynthia Mann Jamin:I think it was. Maybe it just wasn't exciting enough or something. And you wanted the dialogue to be between me and Laura more.Michael Jamin:I don'tCynthia Mann Jamin:Remember. Instead of the roommate. And so you guys had me into the writer's room before, which is very unusual. You never really go into a writer's room to work out a scene. But because we were shooting it that day and we had to go straight to the run through and I think the network was going to be there. You didn't want to mess around. And so you gave me notes and we rehearsed it and Laura was there and the other scene partner who, I'm so sorry, I forgot his name. Chris,Michael Jamin:I want to say.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah, Chris. And then we just went and shot it. And then I shoot the scene at night and I'm like, oh my God, this was so much fun. And it was great. And I'm like, all right, I'm going to go. And who's standing right next to me as I'm walking off the set and kind of hanging back and it was you.Michael Jamin:It was me,Cynthia Mann Jamin:It was you.Michael Jamin:And then you said you wanted to marry me. I said, I don't even know you.Cynthia Mann Jamin:I complimented your tie. That's right. And then you said, I did a really nice job. Yeah, you did. And I said thank you. And then we were talking about, I think you said, so what do you like to do for fun? Or something like that. Yeah. We went and I asked you that and you said you swing dance. And I had already been swing dancing at the Derby many times with my friend Brendan. And we would go and swing dance. SoMichael Jamin:MyCynthia Mann Jamin:Knees went weak when youMichael Jamin:That's right. I took, it was either you or Brendan I took you.Cynthia Mann Jamin:So then long story short, there was a couple of weeks that went by and you called me and said, hi, this is Michael. And I said, I don't remember that name, but you're making it up because he has that name. And then you said, no, it's me and I would like to take you out for coffee. And I said, I don't drink coffee. I drink tea.Michael Jamin:Yeah, we had tea instead.Cynthia Mann Jamin:He said, that's okay, huh?Michael Jamin:Yeah, yeah. Right.Cynthia Mann Jamin:And then I remember this, Michael, on our first date, I hung back in my car because I think I saw you walk in. I'm like, I got to be a little late. I got to make him wait for me a little bit. So I made you wait just a little bit. And then I go in and the woman comes and says, so do you want a chocolate chip or oatmeal cookie, highland grounds? And it's not there anymore, I don't think. And you took the longest time figuring out what flavor you wanted. For me it was easy. It was chocolate chip or peanut butter. That was the other one. And then you go, I go, why did it take you so long to order the cookie? And you go, because I wasn't sure if there was anything to be gained by lying.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I was trying to impress you with the choice of cookies.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Weirdest thing anyone said to me that you cared enough about. The cookie choice is crazy.Michael Jamin:And then we've been together ever since.Cynthia Mann Jamin:We've been together ever since. And to go back to the projects, we started with tiling a table that now our daughter has at her college apartment. And that was our first project. And then we decided to have kids, and that was our second project.Michael Jamin:ThenCynthia Mann Jamin:I started my business Twirly Girl, which I ran for 15 years. Still going, but not as big. And you helped me with that. You wrote all my commercials and did all of that. And then you wrote a book and then I'm helping you with that. So I think we're better when we're working together, honestly.Michael Jamin:Yeah,Cynthia Mann Jamin:I do. I think it's, when I was doing Twirly Girl and you were working as a writer and all of that, we never really connected on any kind of common ground aside from the kids because you were always doing your thing. I was doing my thing. But then when you started to write the commercials, I think our relationship went to another level because it's like you're appreciating the other person for their gifts and what they bring to you. But it's also like you're helping me with something that really means a lot to me. And it was like this back and forth that just felt so great. And I trusted you more than anyone to put me in the best light. And I think that's the same with you trusting me with your words because I care about them and I want to present you in the best light and I'll work tirelessly to get it.Michael Jamin:And you have produce the audio book and you had to learn how to do all that. What do you have to tell people? What do you have to share? What wisdom can you share with people on starting something like this?Cynthia Mann Jamin:I would say, and I was talking to Lola about this last night, and what occurred to me was that when you have the pinch or you have the idea, just the idea to do something and it's filling you with a lot of joy and passion and it almost creates its own engine in you, and you just feel so motivated to attack it and see if you can accomplish it. It almost doesn't matter if anybody else likes it because it's something you need to do. And I felt that way with my business. I remember creating these dresses and going, I know they're special. I know they are so special. And I don't even, the icing on the cake is that other people love them, but that's not why I'm doing itm doing it because I need to do it. And it's bringing me so much joy and it's fulfilling something in me that was missing or that I didn't even know that I needed.And it brought me so much that I could have more than I could have ever thought, oh, I'm going to make dresses because it's going to give me a sense of self. It's going to fire that entrepreneurial spirit. It's going to make me feel connected to those around me. I'm going to share my story about it. I couldn't have thought that I just followed the desire to make something. And then all these things kind of cascaded. And that's what I'm telling you. That's how I feel about the audio book. When you said, all right, you're going to direct and you're also going to edit it and you're going to do all these things, I'm like, I don't know how to do Pretty much, I knew how to direct because of the acting background, but I didn't know how to do an audiobook. We didn't know how we wanted this to come into the world and what it would look like. But I felt that desire, that same joy to just achieve this. And we love it and we know we did an amazing job, and the fact that it's resonating with other people is icing on the cake because we couldn't not do it.Michael Jamin:But you still had to learn a lot of skills to do that.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Well, I think I love, I'm one of those people that loves learning by doing. You would tell me, watch the videos on how to do it. And I was like, this is not going to go anywhere for me because I'm not going to retain it unless I need it. If I need to know how to do something, then I'm going to learn it. So I learned by doing it. And that process is so exciting to me because I know that I'm also growing as a person if I can accomplish something really hard that I don't think I know how to do or I've never done before. So that challenge is also really gratifying for me.Michael Jamin:And now there's the next challenge, which is taking it on the road.Cynthia Mann Jamin:And we have no clue how to do that either. Yeah,Michael Jamin:We'll figure it out. I guess we'll just make it happen.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah,Michael Jamin:It's really just about putting your energy into something and then watching as things start falling into place.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Exactly. You don't know what you don't know, but you'll find it out. And then that thing will lead to another thing. And we have very different styles. You and I, what my sense of what you do, and you tell me what you think mine is, but my sense of what your approach is is you throw a hundred percent of your energy into thinking about it, and you're almost like tunnel vision. You have to be so hyperfocused on it until you get it to where you want it to be and nothing distracts you. What do you think my style is? I'm just, is that I have that right?Michael Jamin:I'm not really sure. I guess so I'm not really sure I, I guess I work on it until I'm done.Cynthia Mann Jamin:But it is like you have this hyper focus about it. And for me, I kind of feel guilty if I'm not like you just sitting at the computer and studying it and figuring it out, then to me, I have to walk away and I have to kind of let it settle. And then I have to really check in with my intuition in a way and go, okay, what's the next right move? Where do I need to spend my energy is just spinning my wheels, trying to figure it out, doesn't work for me. And I feel like you are good at that. You're good at like, okay, I'm going to figure this out. And you just keep working it and working it kneading the dough. And for me, I have to leave it and come back to it.Michael Jamin:All of it was every single part of it. None of it's easy. I don't know why people expect it to be easy. We all want it to be easy, but it never is. The creating of it is never easy. And then the marketing of it, putting it out there and getting people to, that's half the battle.Cynthia Mann Jamin:And I think the main thing that we discovered, and I think you working with Twirly Girl really helped you with this project because you saw how being authentic and really communicating with your audience in a very real way resonates. And there's no other way to do it because how could you post every single day if it wasn't something that was organic for you, it would be torture, trying to become this person that you think other people want to see, or you got to position yourself like this other person over here. But it really is about finding your unique voice because that's all we have. There's a million books out there. There's a million dresses. I created dresses. There's a million of them. We don't need another one. But what we don't have is the dress that I can make. What we don't have is the book that you can write. And I think leaning into that perspective is really, really empowering and crucial to the creative process.Michael Jamin:We would speak a lot. We would go on walks and speak a lot about, in the beginning we would talk about what the function of art is, what's the expectation and what the market is. I remember talking about, because David Sedaris is the one who inspired me to write this. I love his writing. And it's the same genre, personal essays, and I remember talking to you, but we know what he writes. People love, we know there's a market for it. So I be doing that.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah, I, but he's kind of paved the way, and that was inspiring. I think inspiration is so healthy, and that's what you were inspired by. But the whole thing that you talk about is finding your voice, and it took you a while to find the rhythm. And people, when they read it, they're never going to confuse David s and Michael Jamin. They're never going to, because your background in TV gave you this whole different way of going into a story and entertaining an audience. And that's just in your blood. It's in your makeup, it's just who you are and the details of everything that you write. It reads like a film or cinematically because there's no moment in there where it's not leading to something elseMichael Jamin:You are listening to. What the hell is MichaeliJamon talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, A collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timal. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity. And Kirks Review says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, we'll find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book. And now back to our show.Michael Jamin:I wish it was a genre that was easier to explain to people, because when people say, what's your story? What's a book about? I have to try to explain, well, it's personal essays, but it's not an essay. Essay sounds like homework. It's not a memoir because I'm not important that it's my memoir. They're stories, but they're true. But what is that? It'd be just so much easier if I could say, well, it's YA fantasy or something. And people go, oh, okay. I know what young adult fantasy is, but it's not that. And so that's part of the uphill struggle that we have is explaining to people, getting people to understand enough just to take a chance and read it.Cynthia Mann Jamin:But I think letting people catch up to what is what's important, what it is, is important because you're assuming that you have to spell it out for people. And I'll equate it again to Tuley Girl, the dresses I made were so hard to explain. And we were like, but it's not this. It's not fantasy, but you can wear it every day. And I had about 5,000 different taglines because I couldn't communicate it. And then finally you came up with the most amazing explanation of what it was after probably about eight years of doing it, which was, whatMichael Jamin:Was it? You could say it. You could say it.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Well, we don't create dresses. We create your favorite childhood memory. Happy childhood. We're creating happy memories,Michael Jamin:Happy childhood memories.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Dress isn't just a,Michael Jamin:You got it wrong. We create happy childhood memories. That's whatCynthia Mann Jamin:It was. Right? Happy childhood. Well, I've had a year doing the audiobook, so 12 Girls in the Distance there.Michael Jamin:But that was another thing I remember. We saw a wonderful special by this guy named Derek DelGaudio called In and of itself, it's a wonderful, it was on Hulu. It was like a one-time special, basically like an hour long or something.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Well, it started as aMichael Jamin:Stage play. It started as a stage play. But when I tell people, when I try to describe what it's about, it's almost impossible to describe. And that's part of the problem. It's hard. It was such a uniquely wonderful experience, but it's impossible to tell people to describe it because it's its own thing.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah, I But you would say it's a one man show and a very unique experience,Michael Jamin:But there's magic and it's participation, but it's not magic. It's something else.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah, it's not a magic show.Michael Jamin:No, it's not a magic show. So it's really hard to, putting something in a box makes it easier to sell because people can understand what the box is. And I feel like that's part of the struggle I have with a paper orchestra, which is, and everyone who reads it, they love it, but they still don't understand what it is until they actually read it.Cynthia Mann Jamin:But see, I think what you have on the cover is perfect. It's true stories about the smallest moments that you sometimes forget. What if the smallest moments were the ones that meant the most? So that says everything to me. That's all I need to know.Michael Jamin:That's what the book is. It's just about, hey, here's a small moment in life where I point out, which easily you could have forgotten about because it's so small. And it turns out, if you look back at that moment, everything changed because of it.Cynthia Mann Jamin:And I love that you talk about the fact that it's really not about, you have to have these catastrophic or monumental things happen to you to be a changed person. Most of us don't have those huge, huge moments and so tender and intimate about it and relatable because you didn't come from an unusual background. You're pretty average with child of divorce. That's kind of average for our job, do.Michael Jamin:So those are the kind of stories that I tell, and I said before, I really don't think the stories are my stories. The details are mine, but I'm really trying to tell your story. But maybe you haven't figured out how to do that. But I do that because I'm a writer, so I know how to do that.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah, yeah. And I think we're just, it's nice that we're able to work well together in so many ways. And I think it really does stem from having that deep respect for each other's gifts, and we're able to really be very upfront with each other when we don't like something or when we question it. And I'm not married to my way doing it my way. I'm really looking at the bigger picture. I want a paper orchestra to be great. What's going to serve that? And I think we both have that in mind. And in terms of the tour and taking it on the road, I mean, I think you're more than ready to perform it. And I'm so excited for people to be able to experience it in that way as well.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it's a different kind of, that's why, because the show, it is a theatrical show. And I do think there's something more intimate about, people say, can't you record it and play it? Yeah, I could, butCynthia Mann Jamin:Well, that's the audio book. But that audio book is going to be different.Michael Jamin:But in terms of even recording the stage show, you'll miss the intimacy of being right in front of me, being in the room and feeling the energy. You don't feel the energy. That's probably the thing with tv, it's great. It's a wonderful form, but you don't have the same energy as you do seeing live theater. And I wish there's a better way because many people don't want to see live theater, but it's different. It's a different experience. Good theater is great. Bad theater is terrible. That's why it runs the whole gamut. There's that expression. Nothing lasts forever except for bad theater, and that's because of the energy. So it goes both ways.Cynthia Mann Jamin:And when we were working together on the audiobook the first time, we were trying to convey that performance that we do live. And after listening to it again and showing, having our daughter, Lola, listen to it, and her listening to literally the first three minutes, and I had already edited the whole thing. She was like, oh no, this isn't, I can't, you got to bring it down. And we were like, yeah, I had a feeling because when I was editing it, I was like, I don't know. I dunno about this. We just got to see.Michael Jamin:Yeah, we had to do it again because we wanted the performance to be more intimate because you're listening to it on headphones or alone in the car, and it's a different, you're not listening it in a group of people, which is what the theater show is. So I'm literally in your head because you're wearing headphones. We had to bring everything down and make the performance much more intimate. It's a different, and we'll have to see how that affects my next performance with my live show.Cynthia Mann Jamin:You're totally different. I know, totally. But see, when you say we had to bring it down, I don't like saying it like that because it makes it sound like it's sleepy and it's not.Michael Jamin:You had to bring it moreCynthia Mann Jamin:Intimate. But it's like I really wanted, it's more like you contained the energy. They took this kind of energy that needs to project out, and we harnessed it and shoved it into a little two 12 by 12 area inches.Michael Jamin:But this is all acting stuff that I could not have done without you because you're an actor. I have couldn't have figured this out on my own, I don't think.Cynthia Mann Jamin:No, I think it would've been really hard because your tendency when you would just start to read it before I would kind of steer you in the right direction or go, oh, you're going down the wrong path. Let me take you over here. That's pretty much all I needed to do in those moments. But your natural tendency was to just start reading it. And I'm like, where are you? I don't hear your personality. I'm not engaged in the story because you are not connected to it. So it really required the same amount of energy, Michael, that does for you to do this on stage, but you had to have the same amount of energy but contain it.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I mean, it's a whole different art to it, not an actor. So I had to learn how to do, how perform it to keep people engrossed in it. So I dunno, it's a fun performance. We want to travel because this is what we want to do next. We want to travel together and put it up and continue. So if anyone wants to come see it, you can go to michael jamin.com/upcoming and enter your city, and then we'll let you know. When we get to your city, we're figuring out how to, this is the next thing we're figuring out how to actually make it happen so we can do this effectively. Bring it to people's, bring the theater because it's a whole, again, people will say to me, whoa, can you sell it as a tv? Maybe it could be a TV show, maybe it could be a movie. And I'm always thinking about, why can't it just be a book? Why can't it be an audio book? Why can't it be a theatrical show as if TV or movies is somehow better than the experience that we're creating now? I don't think it is. And I work in television and film, I don't think it's better.I think there's a betterness to what we have.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah, there's a pureness to it. There's something very simple and pure and the pacing of it. Everything is consumed so quickly right now, and it's almost too much. It's just too much. And what this does is it helps us to slow down. Yeah,Michael Jamin:There's a power in the pause. There's so much energy that you can portray. This is something that took me a while to have confidence to do, but you can act. You're talking, you're saying you're doing whatever, the whole dog and pony show, but in leaving that pause and saying nothing, there's this anticipation and the audience is just waiting for it. And it's like a loaded gun.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah. I don't like that analogy, but what is it? Well, it's like you're on the edge of your seat and you've got us in your hands, and we're just captive. We're a captive audience. Time stands still. Time stands still, and we're just with you. And it really is allowing our being to kind of just be in that moment. It crystallizes the moments. And those are the moments in theater that why it's so impactful is because we're in this communal experience together where we're experiencing time at the same time, and we're also being together at the same time. It's very profound. And I remember working with you on the audio book and you were really hesitant to take us with you. I remember that. I kept saying, take us with you, Michael. It was like, but I'm going too slow or I'm going too fast. Or it was like, it didn't matter. The pacing. I would arbitrarily tell you, take us with you. And you would say, but I am. I go, yeah, but even if you're slow, or even if you're fast, the intention is to connect with us and make sure that we're with you. And it's hard on an audiobook because there's no audience, but with an audience, you can feel.Michael Jamin:Yeah. But with the audience too, I'm in front of a bright light. I don't see them. I can sense them, but I can't see anybody. ButCynthia Mann Jamin:That's what's important is you sensing it. You can totally sense it. You can sense it because you can hear the Oh or that, or you can hear laugh, or you can hear the silence is different than a regular silence. It's like a pin drop.Michael Jamin:There's that moment at the end of the Marissa disclaimer where I confess to something and the audience is so disappointed. I remember the first time we performed it, they were just like, oh,Cynthia Mann Jamin:We all go. OhMichael Jamin:Yeah. Everyone was so disappointed in me. But that's so effective about it, is that they were along for the ride. And yeah, and that's another thing. You gave me a couple of things that helped me before each show. You printed out Ellie Zen's, what is it called?Cynthia Mann Jamin:Letter to the actor.Michael Jamin:Letter to the actor. And I read it before where I talk about, where he talks about what my responsibility is to the audience as a performer, what my responsibility is. And so it doesn't feel, it's not like, because it can come off as being self-absorbed acting. It could come off as being narcissistic. Look at me. But you can't look at it that way. You have to look at it as this is what I have to do in order to give you what you want,Cynthia Mann Jamin:A gift. You have to give the audience a gift, and you have that responsibility to leave it all on the stage. And when you're an actor, it's no longer about you, Michael. It's about the words on the page. And you need to fulfill those words on the page. And as an actor, we're taught that the words are sacred. We don't change the words. We don't try and outthink the words. They are everything. And our job is to bring that to life and bring ourselves to the piece.Michael Jamin:And it's exhausting, though, at the end of the show. It is exhausting. Don't people appreciate how much energy I have to be in every moment so as not to check out or phone in, or just at the end of the night, I'm exhausted from an hour show. It's like, God,Cynthia Mann Jamin:And you're not expected. It's impossible in a way. And the greatest actors will say this too, that it is a job. So what do you do if you're not feeling it? And in that moment, you're thinking about what you're going to have for dinner, or, oh my God, I can't wait to just go home and lie down because it requires so much energy. And what you do is you go with that truth inside. I don't even want to be here right now. You use the truth of what you're feeling in that moment, and that brings you back into the piece. You have to connect to something real. Whereas if you're denying it and you're going, oh my God, I suck right now. I need to force myself to have this energy, then you're going to overcompensate and you're going to force it. And it's not going to be truthful. But if you really go into the moment of like, ah, damn, I'm just, I got nothing. I feel nothing. How does that make you feel? Feels pretty shitty. All right. I'm just going to say the next line from this place, because this is where I'm at. And then it takes off. Then you're off again. I mean,Michael Jamin:But what if the line, you're not supposed to feel shitty onCynthia Mann Jamin:It. The audience buys it because the audience knows truth. As long as you're truthful, we're going to take however you read it and go, oh, that must be what that means. Oh, the character must feel this way. They're not going, oh, Michael.Michael Jamin:But the character is not supposed to feel the character's excited to be at a party,Cynthia Mann Jamin:But it could look like this. Oh my God, I am so excited to be here. It could look really intense and focused when I'm feeling like God damnit, I'm not feeling anything. Instead of the idea of, oh my God, and I'm so happy to be here. Why does it have to come out that way? Even if I came out and was like, I'm really excited to be here. What does that come out? It could come across. I'm a little nervous or I'm excited. I'm afraid to showMichael Jamin:It. But it feels truthful. You're saying?Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yes, as long as it's rooted in some kind of truth, the audience will interpret it however it needs to go with theMichael Jamin:Story. This is some high level directing shit for people,Cynthia Mann Jamin:Don't you think? Yeah. I mean, I appreciate that. I think a lot of it to me is very, how I was trained was always going with what is. And you hear a noise, somebody, it's not about everybody being quiet all the time and

On December 30th, I hosted a webinar called “How Professional Screenwriters Overcome Writer’s Block” and I talked about why story structure is so important in getting past this block. This episode addresses questions you asked in our Q&A session that we didn't have time to answer. There's lots of great info here, make sure you watch.Show NotesA Paper Orchestra on Website: - https://michaeljamin.com/bookA Paper Orchestra on Audible: - https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: - https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestraFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:Everyone wants to be a showrunner, which is again, why it's so freakingMichael Jamin:Hard. I want to make all the decisions, but you don't know based on what youMichael Jamin:Don't know what you're doing. Why would you want that? Is it an ego thing you want to tell people you're a showrunner or don't you want to learn? Do you assume? When I was starting off, I didn't want to be a showrunner for 10 years. I didn't want to be a show runner. Like, this is a hard job. I don't know how to do it.Michael Jamin:You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase and to support me in this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show.Michael Jamin:Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Well, we're doing another q and a from one of our webinars and my special guest host is Kevin Lewandowski, script coordinator extraordinaire. He helps out with a lot of my projects, social media projects here and he's subbing in for Phil and he's doing a great job. So welcome Kevin.Kevin Lewandowski:Thank you again for having me.Michael Jamin:You screwed it up. You already screwed. No, I'm only messing with you. You're doing great. Thanks.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah, I'm not going to apologize for not being Phil anymore, so fair Phil. But no, I'm happy to be here and this how professional screenwriters overcome Writer's Block is one of my favorite topics to talk about. Oh good. So I think it's super, super interesting and there's been, when we dive into it, I'll say my favorite line that you always say that just unlocked the excuse sometimes we use for when we have writer's block.Michael Jamin:I'm curious to know what your favorite line is.Kevin Lewandowski:Alright, I have so many Michael Jainism that I think my all time favorite is Shit Happening is not a story.Michael Jamin:By the way, we have that on merch now, guys. Yeah, we do. We got merch and you can go get it@michaeljamin.com/merch where all the crazy things that I say, you can get it on a on mug or a notebook or whatever. We got merge. Go get it. I should have plugged it before, but I forgot. But anyway, these questions came from our last webinar that we did and if you're not on my webinar list, sign up for it's free. Go to michael jamin.com/webinar and you can sign up. You can be invited when we do our next one. And so yeah, Kevin, we had a lot of questions people asked. We didn't have time to get all the questions answered and so here they are nKevin Lewandowski:Here we go. These first couple of questions are going to be about kind of course related stuff. So this first one is from David Zilo. I feel like we see his name a lot. I feel like he comes to these webinars a lot and ask a lot of questions. The question is, how does the story structure change when say a character does not, cannot achieve a goal in the tragic story, for example,Michael Jamin:Doesn't change at all. It's the same old story structure that we use. Whether the character achieves their goal at the end or not, it's the same damn thing.Kevin Lewandowski:Yep.Michael Jamin:The guys you're just asking, he's just asking at the end, what if the last two minutes are different, so what? Nothing.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah, I think it's always more interesting for me when that character doesn't achieve their goal. I think the breakup with, but yeah, Vince v and Jennifer Ston, they don't stay together in the end. No. It's one of the few rom-coms that I think they decide to go off the beaten path and not haveMichael Jamin:Them end often. We call this the joyful defeat in a movie or the character doesn't get what they want, but they get what they need. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Next question, Rob. Robert, when is the latest the stakes should be made clear?Michael Jamin:The sooner the better because the story does not start until the audience knows what's at stake. And so until then you're boring them and you're daring them to change the channel or read another script or do something else with their time. So the sooner the better, and that's a note you'll get from a network executive. They'll always say, can we start the story sooner? And so wherever you have it, they'll give you that note. If it's on page four, they'll say page two.Kevin Lewandowski:In your experience, is there a realistic, for instance, if they were like, oh, it's on page three, we need it on page two, have you ever run into We just can't. We need a little bit of room to be able toMichael Jamin:SetKevin Lewandowski:SomethingMichael Jamin:Up. Absolutely. And so you'll move it up a little bit, but sometimes there's only so much you can do.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. But yeah, like you said, they'll always say, oh, can we start this sooner? Yeah, we'll take a look at it. We'll take a look at that. Coley Marie, can the goal change or appear to change?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yes. And often it sometimes will. It's like because something happens and what the character thought they wanted is not what they want anymore. So yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:So how do you feel about, because sometimes it's, is there a fear of if you start writing it too much of a change, can it almost feel like, oh, okay, now we're following a different story to,Michael Jamin:It usually happens kind of like an act top of act three with the character discoveries. This thing that I wanted turns out I don't really want any. I got what I thought I wanted and it's not what I want. So that's usually late in the script.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. So you're saying in top of act two, if they wanted to,Michael Jamin:It wouldn't be top ofKevin Lewandowski:Act ride a pony at the end of act one. Top of Act two should be like, well, I want to win this prize at the CarnivalMichael Jamin:Now. Yeah, top of act two is one. Well, this is what we teach in the course. What tab of Act two would be, so yeah,Kevin Lewandowski:Arius Kennedy. So should we avoid high stakes conflicts?Michael Jamin:No. The higher stakes are good. High stakes are good. Higher the stakes are better. You want to avoid low stakes conflicts.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah, low stakes conflicts are not that interesting. Heather Marie, vital, how do we find conflicts for TV shows with main characters without getting stale? That's kind of the job of a writer.Michael Jamin:Yeah, that's right. That's exactly, that's the job without getting stale, it's like, and again, this is not her concern. Concern. Your concern is to do it once and then let's a showrunner worried about it getting stale. Right now your job is to write one great scriptKevin Lewandowski:Are Barry, when it comes to an episodic show, there's the overall show conflict and then the mini conflicts of the episodes. So I'm assuming they're talking about, there's the A story, the B story, the C story,Michael Jamin:Or maybe they're talking about the overall arch of the show. I'm watching Show Gun right now and I'm only on episode one, so it seems like the overarching stories, how is this one? I dunno if he called the futile Lord going to maintain his position in the kingdom, but within each episode he has a challenge that he has to overcome, so to make that larger prop goal happen.Kevin Lewandowski:Meg Parker Wilson, when you are writing a TV show, do you plot out the entire story pilot to finale and then create all those moments episode by episode in terms of the arc and the structure?Michael Jamin:No, it's too much work. It's too difficult. What you really, and again, this is not something that she needs to worry about, but maybe she's just asking me out of curiosity, we'll come up with a pilot and we'll have that pilot broken. We know what that story is going to be and then we have a vague idea of what season one might be. But I'm talking vague, just enough to bullshit our way through this because it'll change when we're breaking the story. As we discover writing and digging into the character, we'll discover something that might be better. So what are we going to do? Not do it just because we said we were talking out of our ass that this other thing was going to be better,Kevin Lewandowski:Right? Yeah. I think Vince Gilian, creator of Breaking Bad, I think he says something very similar. Yeah, we kind of have an idea, but part of going through different story ideas is you discover stuff along the way. Jesse Pinkman was only supposed to be four or five episodes, and then now they realize how much chemistry those two characters had. And could you imagine, would that show have worked if they would've killed off Jesse Pinkman? Because they said, well, we said our pitch, we have to kill em off after five episodes. We have to stick with that.Michael Jamin:I'm always surprised that people don't know that and they're worried about breaking the entire series. It's like, but breaking one episode of television when I'm talking breaking, figuring out what the story is and writing the outline in the script is so much work. How could you possibly do all that in advance and you have a team of writers doing all that work.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. Sometimes you'll see people that'll talk about, yeah, I have this TV series I wrote and I have the first eight episodes done, and I'm like, oh, that's a lot to do withMichael Jamin:No theyKevin Lewandowski:Don't. One person,Michael Jamin:They really don't. They might have enough for one episode and they broke it up into eight episodes. They don't know any better. That's very common. I thinkKevin Lewandowski:I remember there's another example on friends that one of the writers was talking about. It's probably one of the more iconic moments of the whole series is when Ross is getting married to Emily and Rachel shows up and he ends up, he accidentally says Rachel's name, I Ross take the Rachel. And the writer was saying that wasn't anything we would've ever thought of. It was one day we were rehearsing or something like that. And he accidentally said the wrong name. And as writers, we all laughed and we thought that's super funny. He was like, we had the aha moment of like, oh, we need to include this. And that little moment had so much of a change for the rest of the series. Now it turned into, well, Emily will make them now. Okay. It's clear that Ross is still in love with Rachel and Emily. She's only going to come to New York if Ross stops talking to Rachel. So it was just that little moment of discovery and what would that scene or storyline have been if Ross married EmilyMichael Jamin:And they discovered that by accident and rehearsal and what are you going to do not do with this and that, that moment everyone gasped in the audience and people at home gasped. So what you not going to do it?Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah, and I don't think in their pitch they're like, okay, season five we're going to have Ross marry this British girl, but when he is actually up there, we're going to have him say Rachel's thing. It was just discovery.Michael Jamin:You don't think that far in advanced. You can't. It's too much work.Kevin Lewandowski:Let's see. So this next question from Sarah, there's a bit of terminology from your course, so I'm going to not use that terminology, but does the end of act two have to be in direct relation to the conflict with the introduced in the first act? Can it be attributed to a different relationship conflict?Michael Jamin:No, no, no. Pretty much no. If you're telling one story that's your A story or your act two break to be on the A story. If it's coming out of nowhere and it's like, what's this? It's not going to feel earned. It's going to be like, what's going on?Kevin Lewandowski:Rob, Robert again, how do we make funny? Because it can be so subjective.Michael Jamin:Yeah. One thing I say is in my course, I can't teach you how to be funny. I can maybe teach you how to be a little funnier. I could give you tips that will help you be a little funnier, but if you're not funny, I can't help you be funny. It's okay. You can write drama. There's plenty of work for drama writers and just write what you're really good at. But it is a little heartbreaking. I see sometimes when people, I want to be accommodator, but you're not funny, so you don't have that in you. That's okay. Write some other stuff. Drama's great too.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. One of my other favorite things you say, and this wasn't the one I was talking about earlier, is you have to find new ways to say old things in a funny way. Yeah. Every version of a joke has been told to a degree. So how do you make it relevant to today and your story and your characters and make it so it hasn't been heard that way before.Michael Jamin:You know what though? I just got an email from, I don't know how I'm on this list, whatever. I got an email from a writer and she's doing a public appearance and she said, come see me the headline, come see me. I don't bite. And I'm like, oh God, you're supposed to be a writer. Don't tell me you don't bite. That's so unoriginal. That's so clammy. That's not something a writer should ever say. Find a new way to say, I don't bite. I was so unimpressed. I was like, oh God, you just embarrass yourself. Don't do that. You're a writer. You have to find a new way to say old things.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. Okay, so these are kind of more craft related questions, Nathan Shapiro, what are the rookie mistakes you see new writers making both in writing as well as from the business side. What is something you wish you had known when you were starting out? And then part two, which I think this is actually part three, do all supporting lead characters need an obstacle and goal? Or is it sufficient that they're simply there to facilitate the main hero's journey?Michael Jamin:This guy's gotKevin Lewandowski:Questions. We'll split this up. So the first part was what are the rookie mistakes you see new writers making both in writing as well as from the business side.Michael Jamin:I mean, a rookie mistake in the writer's room is what we call when they bitch instead of pitch. The expression is pitch, don't bitch. So it's very easy for a new writer to shoot down an idea in the room without having a better one because it's hard to come up with a better one. So that's a rookie thing. I don't care if the idea on the table is bad, if you don't have a better one, shut up because it's what are you there for? You're not a critic. Your job is to make it better, not to say this is bad. AndKevin Lewandowski:Also don't defend your joke if the showrunner doesn't think it's good. If you put something, they're like, ah, I don't really know. Okay, that's it.Michael Jamin:Don'tKevin Lewandowski:Fight for it. Don't just let it go. Think of a better one.Michael Jamin:What was the other question?Kevin Lewandowski:So the next one is, what is something you wish you had known when you were starting up?Michael Jamin:Well, to be honest, everything that I teach in the course, I didn't know any of it.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah, I think it's just, yeah, I mean, again, Michael's course has unlocked a lot for me and someone that's not a very intelligent person, he really simplifies it.Michael Jamin:Yeah, make it easy.Kevin Lewandowski:It's easy to understand. I don't understand the terminology of progressive complications and sight incidents, all that stuff. IMichael Jamin:Don't understand it either.Kevin Lewandowski:Any sense to me? I won't tell you what the terms are that Michael uses. You'll have to take this course, but they're much easier toMichael Jamin:Understand. Yeah, I think writing should be simple. It's not easy, but it's simple.Kevin Lewandowski:And then the last part of this question, do all supporting lead characters need an obstacle and goal, or is it sufficient that they're simply there to facilitate the main hero's journey?Michael Jamin:Well, often they are an obstacle in the main hero's journey. Sometimes if you don't give 'em too much to play, they can be the Greek chorus, but generally every character in a scene has to have an attitude on something, and if they don't wire in the scene, if they don't have, they're not just there to stand around. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:So do you also think when in the context of the story structure that you teach in your class, those B stories that aren't necessarily as emotionally empowering as what the A story is, do you think it should still follow all those structure points or just enough or doesn't really matter?Michael Jamin:No, a b story doesn't carry the same emotional weight as the A story. So it doesn't actually have to carry, it doesn't have to be structured the way an A story is, but stuff does have to happen and it can't be random. It has to be on that story that we're following.Kevin Lewandowski:Okay. Next question. If it's an ensemble cast, like Orange is a new black or stranger things, does each character have to have a stake or only a main character? So very similar to thisMichael Jamin:Question. Yeah, usually you're following. I mean, I haven't watched Stranger Things in a long time. Maybe they have two or three running storylines in each episode. I don't know. They probably do.Kevin Lewandowski:Who is the hero in horror movies like Friday the 13th? Is it Jason or the person who survives at the end?Michael Jamin:Well, you're not rooting for Jason. You're not rooting for him to murder everybody. And again, I haven't seen those Friday the 13th movies, but you're rooting for the person in the summer camp.Kevin Lewandowski:Michael. Is there such thing as an anti-hero?Michael Jamin:Yeah, of course there is, and I talk about that, but the problem is I think it's unnecessarily complicated. What's interesting, an anti-hero and a hero. Why don't you just call it a hero and make it easier on yourself? Oh, because your anti-hero is a little bit unlikeable or a little bit dirty or villainous. Well, that's okay. There's still a hero.Kevin Lewandowski:I think there was an example you used of if you're writing something about the devil, him being what we all think the devil is, that's not interesting. You make him where he has compassion with some things and you give him layers like Sopranos. You talk about the example as well, and I think it's those villains are, they're the hero in their own story. We may not agree with it. They're the hero in their own story though. Yeah,Michael Jamin:I think Tony Swan, I don't think he's an anti-hero. I think he's a hero.Kevin Lewandowski:Okay, next question. Do you have to know the end when you start the story? Can it change?Michael Jamin:And often it does. You'll get often it does. Often it does, but usually when we're breaking a story on the board in the writer's room, no one sent off to outline or script until we know what the ending is. But it's not uncommon to get a draft back and you go, you know what? This ending isn't working. Let's figure out a new Act three.Kevin Lewandowski:And in your experience, do you think for something like the ending doesn't feel right, do you think that was potentially because it wasn't broken in the best way? Or do you think the writer didn't maybe necessarily deliver the dialogue the right way?Michael Jamin:Well, often problems in act three requires solutions in Act one. So in other words, it wasn't set up right. The ending wasn't set up early, and so it's unusual to say, okay, all we have to do is fix Act three. No, you got to fix all of it.Kevin Lewandowski:And that's when you have the really late nights and you do dinner in the writer's room, which everyone hates when that PA comes around is All right. What does everyone want for dinner?Michael Jamin:Yep.Michael Jamin:You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, A collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timal. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and carcass Review says Those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book, and now back to our showKevin Lewandowski:From Rachel. It helps to do homework before even writing. Yes. If you're new to fantasy, read some fantasy scripts or books first.Michael Jamin:Sure, a lot as much as you can, but I'd also ask you why you want to write fantasy then, if you've never read any or what's attracting to you, to you if you don't even know anything about it.Kevin Lewandowski:Next question. What's with the job titles that writers end up with? What do the different kinds of jobs actually cover?Michael Jamin:So there's different levels to writers. They're just ranks and in terms of how much it's big pay grades basically. So the lowest level writer is called a staff writer. Even though everyone, it's confusing because every writer on staff is a staff writer, but the lowest level writer has the title of staff writer. Then the next higher up is called story editor, then executive story editor, then co-producer, producer, supervising producer, co-executive producer, executive producer, the executive producer's the showrunner, and so they're the boss and everyone else. They're just different levels that determines how much you're going to get paid. Often it determines how much responsibility you have. If the showrunner leaves the room, often it's the co-executive producer who will run the room in their proxy or they'll do the set, they'll work on the set, they'll do whatever that's based on their experience. But in terms of job responsibilities, other than that, it's really up to the S to determine how much they want. Maybe they'll say if someone's a producer, they may let them go to the set on their own. I mean, it just depends on the showrunner, what they want them to do.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. One of the shows I worked on, I think we talked about this in the last podcast, Steve Rudnick, who wrote Space Jam and Santa Claus movies. He was a supervising producer on The Muppets, and he spent a lot of time on set and he really liked it. It's just fascinating to watch how those puppeteers canMichael Jamin:DoKevin Lewandowski:Their stuff. Next question from Steven. Can stream of consciousness work for screenwriting?Michael Jamin:Sounds terrible to me. I'm not a fan of stream of consciousness. I'm not really interested in reading your thoughts. If you're going to take me someplace, take me by the hand and lead me there. To be honest, just going to say it right now, I feel stream of consciousness is masturbatory. I feel like it's for yourself and no one else, but I could be. Someone else may enjoy it.Kevin Lewandowski:So when you say hold my hand, because I think there's also this, people sometimes assume, well, well, I don't want to put that on the page. It's just going to take a page. The audience will get, the audience will understand what I'm going for, and I think is there that fine line of figuring out, okay, what do I need to hold the hand of the audience through versus what do I think they're going to be able to pick up?Michael Jamin:Yeah. I like to write. When I'm writing, I like to check in with the audience, let 'em know. Yeah. When I say hold their hand, let them know. Remind them what's at stake here. This character wants, I'd like to just check. So it's not a mystery. Now, often that's the difference between sometimes you'll see a really smart writing, they won't kind of do that. They expect a little more of the audience. It just depends on what kind of show you're doing. If you're doing a broad silly show, you check in with the audience knowing that that's not what they're there for. They're there for something silly and fun. You got to keep checking in with them. But I just saw a zone of interest, which is really smart, and they didn't check in with the audience, and that might win. The Oscars a wonderful movie also. That's not a movie for the masses. I don't think it's going to be a movie that's a blockbuster. It was a great movie though.Kevin Lewandowski:What are the stakes of 2001 a Space Odyssey?Michael Jamin:God, I haven't seen it in forever. What were the stakes was the guy I am trying to remember. They went on a spaceship. They had a mission, but then the computer was sabotaging the mission and there was going to basically, I think the computer was going to kill them, basically take 'em on a mission that would kill them. Is that that I remember. So the stakes were life or death.Kevin Lewandowski:Those are pretty mistakes.Michael Jamin:And how do we defeat the computer? Who's the boss of the whole thing? How do we fool the computer? I believe that's what it was, right? It was a long time ago.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah, it's been a while since I've seen that, and I guess if they don't, they die.Michael Jamin:I think so, yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Next question. How would you recommend doing a man versus a system conflict, like perhaps is seen in Cool Hand Luke?Michael Jamin:Well, I mean, yeah, that was the whole thing. He wanted to get out of prison. They were trying to, and again, I haven't seen that in 10, 12 years. I don't remember. He was in prison and the system was trying to break him down. Right? That's like anything you escape from Alcatraz to the same thing. How do we get out of this prison? So yeah, but I'm trying to remember in Cool Luke, there was probably a face to the system. It wasn't like a system. I'm guessing it there was a warden or something, or there were other inmates who was the face of the system trying to remember. They called me off guard.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. So I was thinking about when you said I was Shawshank Redemption, and I think it's, yeah, there's the system, but then kind of the warden represents the system. In that context,Michael Jamin:There was the warden and then the warden's proxy, the guard, and there were definitely, it wasn't so much the system. They were faces of the system. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Okay. Can the conflict be hidden from the hero? The hero thinks they want control money, but they really don't want to be alone because they were abandoned as a kid.Michael Jamin:Well, I mean, all of that is fine, but your hero is not going to want a hero. Wanting money is not a reputable goal. Who cares? So what your hero wants it sounds like, is companionship. If they're abandoned or or whatever. That's what they're really wanting. So yeah, I mean, all of that is fine, but I'm not sure why it's not hidden for the, yeah,Kevin Lewandowski:I think thinking about breaking bad, I think a lot of people would think, well, Walter White wanted money. No, that'sMichael Jamin:Not what he wanted. Walter White wanted to provide for his family. He was going to be dead soon, so it wasn't the money he wanted. What he wanted was very reputable. He wants to give his family something so they could live when he's dead to, because he can't provide for them. So it wasn't like he wanted a new Ferrari,Kevin Lewandowski:And I think that slightly eventually morphed into he just wants to maintain being powerful.Michael Jamin:Well, then it turned into something else. Then he went down this path of it was about power and control, and he went down that, but that was only seasons into it.Kevin Lewandowski:AI and equalizer for skill and creativity in this competitive era of artists?Michael Jamin:I don't think so. I think ai, I guess it's a cheat code if you want to be a writer, if you wanted to be a race car driver, you'd learn how to race, car drive, and you'd go to courses and classes and you'd be really good at shifting and all that stuff and understand the apex of a curve and how to attack a curve. Or I suppose you could get behind the wheel of a Tesla and put it on autopilot and you could just fall asleep. But why do you want to be a race car driver then if that's what you aspire to do? Do you just want to be a dummy in the wheel of the car?Kevin Lewandowski:I think one of the other things you always say too is AI may never be able to write true human emotion and never be able to really write what my personal stories have been my life. And I think until it can do that, I think we're fine.Michael Jamin:Yeah, we'll see. They're doing some, I guess, crazy amazing things, and I don't know. We'll see. But I'm not sure. I don't know why you or any other aspiring writer would want that. I would think you would want to root against that.Kevin Lewandowski:Oh yeah.Michael Jamin:I think, don't you want to write stories? Don't you want to be the author of the stories, don't you? Isn't that why you want to be a writer, to take what's inside of you and express it in a way that entertains people? Or do you want to be just the person who plugs the computer in the morning and say You're a writer?Kevin Lewandowski:And I think about the writer strike we all went through, and that was a huge topic of conversation, and writers took a sacrifice to stop this from happening to help protect writers that are going to be coming up. And I think it's probably going to be an ongoing battle for a while.Michael Jamin:Yeah, the world's changing fast. Yeah. Scary.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. Too fast.Michael Jamin:Yeah, too fast.Kevin Lewandowski:Is it possible to have two showrunners attached to one project, the creator of the show, and one more experienced showrunner?Michael Jamin:No. I mean, they're not going to be equal. I mean, I suppose anything's possible, but it's very unlikely. I've been on shows where someone, a younger writer created it and then they assigned a showrunner. And the showrunner on that one show, the showrunner was very gracious, and he included this young writer and a lot of the decisions, and it wasn't like he made it a partnership as best as he could, but at the end of the day, he was still the boss. Someone has to be the boss, but he was very gracious about how he treated this young writer and he really wanted to mentor him. But again, when you're a mentor, that means more than the other person.Kevin Lewandowski:And you and Seaver have run shows together, right?Michael Jamin:Yeah. But we're a partnership, so that's a little different. But this person is talking about one person created another one. Everyone wants to be a showrunner, which is again, why it's so freaking hard. I want to make all the decisions, but you don't know based on what you don't know what you're doing. Why would you want that? Is it an ego thing you want to tell people you're a showrunner or don't you want to learn? Do you assume? When I was starting off, I didn't want to be a showrunner for 10 years. I didn't want to be a showrunner. This is a hard job. I don't know how to do it. And then you get to the point in your career where it's like, it's either that or unemployment. So I'm like, all right, sign me up for showrunner.Kevin Lewandowski:What, even with that, the rooms I've been in, you just see how many meetings that the showrunners have to be in that aren't necessarily directly related to the writing and the story. It's costume stuff, it's hair and makeup stuff. It's set pieces. It's all these different things that they have the final, final approval on andMichael Jamin:And that's the easy part, all that stuffKevin Lewandowski:Breaking in. Any advice for being hired in a writer's room without coming up with an original show idea? Or do you have to bring an original idea to an interview?Michael Jamin:No, you don't have to. You can write a script on an existing show. You can write a great Game of Thrones spec script, and as long as the showrunner wants to read it and thinks it's great, you're hired.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. Do you think in today's world, from what I've heard, spec scripts sort of aren't really a thing anymore. Do you think a lot of that has to do with just because there's so much out there that if I'm like, here, Michael, here's a specs on whatever show, there's a real chance that I've never heard of the show.Michael Jamin:Yes, that's exactly, and that's why, that's why I think it's unfair. I mean, life is unfair, but that's why I think it's harder today than it was back when I was breaking in. Because you could write a spec sip on an existing show on er, and everyone knew what ER was. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:It's interesting too, because then I've heard you say this too before, if you're running whatever show and it's in season two or season three, and you're interviewing me and you read my original pilot, you're more like, well, this is great, but I want to know, can you write my show? That's what I want you for. Your original pilot is cool, has nothing to do with my show. I want to know. Can you write my show? Do you have the character's personalities down?Michael Jamin:And it's harder to create an original show, a pilot. It's much harder, I feel, than creating a spec script of an existing show. That's the days we live in. What are we going to do?Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah, I think that might've been all of our questions for right now, but I did want to say, so the one thing I always take away when we talk about this is when writers overcome writer's block, something you always say is Writer's block isn't really a thing for professional writers. You don't get to say, I'm going to go to the beach for three days and clear my head. And if you're really struggling with the writer's block, chances are you don't necessarily have the structure down to a point. And that'll help unlock a lot of problems for you. And that's what Michael scor teaches is those structure points and what you need to know. And I think there's little instances of

On December 8th, I hosted a webinar called “What “Do Showrunners Look For In A Script,” where I talked about how to come up with interesting and unique characters, as well as how tapping into your everyday life interactions with people can help with this. This episode addresses questions you asked in our Q&A session that we didn't have time to answer. There's lots of great info here, make sure you watch.Show NotesA Paper Orchestra on Website: - https://michaeljamin.com/bookA Paper Orchestra on Audible: - https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: - https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestraFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:Well, no one cares that you took my course, so zero. No one's going to be. That's why we don't give a diploma out because the diploma is worthless. No one really cares if you went where you studied, who taught you all they care about? Is the script good or not? Does it make them want to turn the page or not? Do they want to find out what happens next or not?Michael Jamin:You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase And to support me in this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show.Michael Jamin:Hey everyone, welcome to a very special episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about. I'm here with my guest host Kevin Lewandowski, and he helps out a lot with the podcast, with all my social stuff, and he's actually by trade. He's a writer's assistant script coordinator, which is actually one step higher than writer's assistant, so he's worked on a bunch of shows. Kevin, welcome to the show.Kevin Lewandowski:Thank you for having me. Michael, for those of you, sorry I'm not Phil, I'm just kind of filling in for Phil for a couple days, but I'm excited to be here. And yeah, I hope to tell you all a little bit about script coordinating as well and what that all entails,Michael Jamin:Fill in and fulfill, fillKevin Lewandowski:In and fulfill.Michael Jamin:What shows were you script coordinator on?Kevin Lewandowski:So the big one was Why Women Kill.Michael Jamin:Did we ever figure out why?Kevin Lewandowski:I mean, depending on who you ask, a lot of women will say because of men,Michael Jamin:They kill for ratings.Kevin Lewandowski:Right? Okay, that's better. But yeah, that was, I forgot how long ago that was, but that was, unfortunately we got canceled four or five days before we were supposed to start filming. Our actors had just landed in Canada and then the next day they announced they were pulling the plug on the show.Michael Jamin:Why?Kevin Lewandowski:It could be many reasons. I think a lot of it had to do with we were a little bit behind on scripts and then budgeting and we were still kind of in the midst of covid precautions and things like that.Michael Jamin:Covid, people don't realize, especially new showrunners, you don't mess with the budget. You get things done on time, Ross, you're screwed. What other shows did you work on then?Kevin Lewandowski:So the first show I ever worked on was in 2015. It was the Muppets, and it was funny. I thought if anyone ever caught a break, this is my break. I was like, it's the Muppets, it's going to go on for five or six years and I'm just going to notch up every year. And after 16 episodes, that one got canceled.Michael Jamin:What's Ms. Piggy really like?Kevin Lewandowski:I mean, she is who she is. Difficult. Yeah, she's difficult. She's a bit of a diva. We have to had to cater to all of her needs.Michael Jamin:What about, I'm sorry, and what were the other shows? Screw Miss Piggy. Yeah,Kevin Lewandowski:Screw Miss Piggy. So after that, a bunch of pilots that never got picked up, and then I worked for a show on Netflix called The Ranch with AshleyMichael Jamin:ElementKevin Lewandowski:That was a live audience show and I was there for two seasons. I'm trying to think after that. It's all becoming a blur. I did two seasons of Why Women Kill. Actually the first year I was a line producer's assistant, and so that was interesting to kind of see the financial side of things and see where they decide to put the money in. And then for season three, they moved me to Script coordinator,Michael Jamin:But the Branch was a legit show. That was a big show.Kevin Lewandowski:That was a lot of fun because I'd always wanted to work in the Multicam world. There's just something about show night and it's just kind of a big party for everyone and you get to see the audience's instant gratification. It's just a lot of fun. A lot of fun to work on those shows.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Well now the next thing for us to do is try to get you into one of these jobs so you don't have to co-host with me all the time on thisKevin Lewandowski:Podcast. I don't mind co-hosting with you.Michael Jamin:Oh, all right. Well, we'll see if you feel that way at the end. Okay, that's fair. So we are doing, this is a special q and a. We do these monthly webinars or whatever, every three weeks actually, and we have a lot of questions we can't answer. And so we save 'em for the podcast. And now Kevin's going to feed them to me. He's going to regurgitate them to me. He's going to baby bird them into my mouth, and then I'm going to try to answer them as best I can.Kevin Lewandowski:Early Bird gets the worm or something like that.Michael Jamin:Gross. Kevin Gross.Kevin Lewandowski:And I apologize in advance for anyone's name I might butcher.Michael Jamin:It's okay. They don't need to. I mean whatever if you get 'em wrong. Okay,Kevin Lewandowski:So these first few questions are going to be kind of course related questions. The first one is from Dat Boy, D-A-T-B-O-I. And that person's asking, what are the best tips for making my script shine more than the rest?Michael Jamin:Oh boy. Well, I wish he would. Well, he was already at my free webinar. I wish he would sign up for my course. I mean, that's what the course is. The best tips for making it shine is making sure your act breaks pop, making sure the dialogue feels fresh, your characters are original. I mean, there's no tips. It's not a tips thing. It's 14 hours of, let me tell you how to do it. That boy, I wish. What do you think, Kevin? What's your answer for him?Kevin Lewandowski:I think it's one of the things you always say on your webinars is after taking my course, you'll just hear me yelling in your head all the time about this is your end of act two moment, this is this, this is that. And I can vouch for that and say, anytime I'm looking through a script or even watching a TV show, because of your course and just understanding the story structure, you get those spider senses like, oh, the raising the stake should be coming very soon. Now we're about halfway through the episode, so something better be changing here. And I think it's just, again, everything you say in your course of just knowing those beats when they need to hit how they need to pop will help set your script ahead of amateur writers.Michael Jamin:You're a good student, Kevin.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. Thanks.Michael Jamin:Alright, what's next?Kevin Lewandowski:So km phs, when I say I don't have experience, but I have a killer pilot and I took Michael Jamin's course. How much of a difference is the course going to make in terms of being a desirable hire?Michael Jamin:No one cares that you took my course. So zero no one's. That's why we don't give a diploma out because the diploma is worthless. No one really cares if you went where you studied, who taught you all they care about, is the script good or not? Does it make them want to turn the page or not? Do they want to find out what happens next or not? So I wish I could give you a better answer than that, but it's not the degree. The degree isn't worth anything. Hopefully the knowledge is worth something.Kevin Lewandowski:I think the analogy I have in my head of your courses, I look at scripts I wrote before taking your course, and it's like when you look back at high school photos and I had the Frosted tips, the pca, shell, necklace, hoop earring, and at the time it was cool. And now you look back and it's like it's pretty cringe-worthy. It's pretty cringe-worthy to see those photos. And now after taking your course, I feel like it's like now I'm wearing a suit and I don't have the poop hearing and I don't have the frosted tips, and I'm not as cringe-worthy when I look back at some of the scripts I wrote a year or so ago.Michael Jamin:Good, good. All right, good. Very good. Impressing me more and more, Kevin.Kevin Lewandowski:Right? Next question. Ous. I'm butchering that one. Nope,Michael Jamin:Perfectly. That's how he says his name.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. What are the most important things an inspiring writer should be aware of while reviewing one script before sending it to an established executive or writer?Michael Jamin:God, it's pretty much the same answer as all the other ones. It's like, do your act breaks, pop? Is it fresh? The dialogue, I'm sorry, but it's the same answer, so I don't really have anything to say. Yeah, yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Next question, mal. Yay.Michael Jamin:Exactly.Kevin Lewandowski:In a 26 page pilot is page 11 two, late for the first act break, second act break or second act being on page 20.Michael Jamin:On the 26 page script, the first back page is on 11, is that what they said?Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah.Michael Jamin:It's not terrible. I've seen worse things. I'm assuming it's a single space. It's not terrible. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Colin Miller, what is a good system to practice writing every day? I like this question.Michael Jamin:A good system, a good system. I don't know why you like it, because I'm stumped. I mean, I would just say write a good system is to, I'm most creative in the morning, so that's when I want to write and I try to do my busy work in the evening stuff that's easier, but you might be a night owl, but I would just carve out time every day and just sit down at the computer and write. And don't be so precious that no one's going to look at your first draft. That first draft can be terrible, so don't just get it on paper. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. I think a lot of maybe misconceptions people have is writing every day isn't necessarily open up final draft and typing something. Sometimes it's going on a walk for an hour and a half and thinking about the story you're trying to tell and laying out the beats in, I live in Glendale and there's a outdoor mall. It's fun to kind of just walk around there and people watch a little bit. And sometimesMichael Jamin:The Americana, that's where you go.Kevin Lewandowski:Yep. Right By the Americana.Michael Jamin:Are you in walking distance to thatKevin Lewandowski:Few blocks?Michael Jamin:Interesting. Okay. Alright. You'd like to go on the trolley.Kevin Lewandowski:I've never been on that trolley. I'm always afraidMichael Jamin:You like to ring the bell on trolley, Kevin. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:I'm always afraid it's going to hit someone.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I know. I know.Kevin Lewandowski:I think takes up a lot of the bottom of the path.Michael Jamin:Yeah. AllKevin Lewandowski:Right. Next question. So NRS creates, I guess this is a question, it's more of a comment. It said, agreed. The course is changing the way I see all of my stories. Good, great.Michael Jamin:Great.Kevin Lewandowski:Christina Sini, who's a current student, and Michael Jamin's course, we learned to break and structure story well before writing those bits and pieces of a script glued together that we won't have to cling to anyone to make them fit. We basically learned how to build in order. I think that goes back to your analogy of laying the foundation first and doing, starting with the characters in beat sheets and then outlining and eventually getting to the physical writing of the script.Michael Jamin:Yeah, she's doing great, Christina. She's having a good amount of success early on, so I'm impressed.Kevin Lewandowski:Another very active person in the course, Laurie. John Michael's course is amazing. When you take the class, you also become of the Jam and Facebook community. We do table reads and give each other notes twice a month. Writer sprints, Wednesday nights and mock writer's room. So anyone that's thinking about getting the course, we have this private Facebook group and it's a bunch of great people in there and we are all just trying to build each other up.Michael Jamin:It really is. It's impressive because when you look at some of the other Facebook groups, the screenwriting groups or on Reddit or groups, it's mostly people trying to tear each other down. But because this is private, I think they're not like that at all. It's a community, I think.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah, I think that was a big thing for you because you said you were in some of those groups, and I think you even said you sometimes as a professional working writer, you would say something that people would attackMichael Jamin:You. Yeah. You don't, what are you talking about? Oh, alright. I happened once or twice. I was say, I'm done. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:All right. Next question. VV oral, is it worth it? And parentheses story structure is very detailed in your course, so I think maybe it's worth it, not is it worth it? Yeah. I think it's just more people praising about your course.Michael Jamin:Okay.Kevin Lewandowski:Let's see. Okay, now we have some craft questions. Good. From Mal mavey, they, again, is it okay to end a pilot on a cliffhanger?Michael Jamin:Yeah, it's okay, but better not. You're really counting on the fact that anyone's going to care, so you're better. I think what the danger is, you may be writing towards this cliffhanger thinking that everyone's going to be so, oh my God, what's going to happen if you don't write? If all those pages beforehand aren't so great, no one's going to care what happens. And so a lot of people write towards this cliffhanger thinking, oh, aren't you going to be enthralled? And the answer is no, we don't care.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. Yeah. I think trying to work backwards from that I think can be a disservice. And I think it's just you definitely don't want that cliffhanger to be more exciting necessarily than your act one break, because that's what we know what we're following. Lex Macaluso, once I have a great script, what are the practical steps to do?Michael Jamin:Well, once you have a great script, write another one for sure. And then you want to make sure you actually do have a great script. And you do that by showing it to people. And it doesn't have to be somebody in the industry. It could be a friend or a mother or someone whose opinion you trust. What do you think? And if they love it and they say, this is amazing, show me something else. You're onto something. But if they say, well, I like this part, or I like when this happened, or This is a good storyline, then that's not a great script. So you have to be honest with yourself. It's really, look, it's really hard to write a great script. Everyone assumes they have it and I don't assume I have it. So when I do my job really well, I might have a good script. A great script is really, you got to really hit it out of the park.Kevin Lewandowski:And I think just that idea of what is a great script, so arbitrary, and I think it's sticking to the story structure of what you teach in your course can help set your script apart from others.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And honestly, it is those things that I'm looking for. All the things that I say that when I'm reading a script, what I'm looking for and what I'm really looking for is I want a really good script. It doesn't even have to be great because a really good script stands out great or amazing is very rare. I mean, how often do you see a movie that's been made or a TV show and you go, this is a great script. Most of the time you're like, oh, this is really good.Kevin Lewandowski:So if you were reading a script, and let's say maybe the structure wasn't where you think it should be, but the characters were very compelling and the characters were witty with what they were saying. Would you still be okay with that? Or vice versa if maybe the characters was a little bit too much speaking on the nose, but the structure and everything was spot on with that.Michael Jamin:Years ago we hired on a show, we were running a show and we were reading a ton of scripts, and we got to one where Act one was really good. Act two was really good, and Act three was not very good. And we hired him anyway because we were thought at that point, I was like, he did the first two parts really well, I could fix, or we could fix Act three, not a problem. And so I think that says a lot. You do act one, walk two. That's a big deal. He's a young writer.Kevin Lewandowski:Do you see a pattern with a lot of writers starting out is Act two where they struggle the most? Or is it act three or is it,Michael Jamin:Listen, I don't make it to act two. If Act one isn't good, I don't read further. I get another script. If I get a stack of scripts, who cares about Act two? Fact One sucks.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. Ben Miller, what screenplays are the best to read, to learn from perhaps the West Wing pilot, which I read in a screenwriting class?Michael Jamin:Well, it depends what you want to write. If you want to write drama, then maybe West Wing pilot, I haven't read it, but you can also learn from reading band scripts. You can say to yourself, if long as you're honest, why am I not interested in this? And if you know what to look for, why is the script not compelling? Is the dialogue, is it the act breaks? Do they now you'll know what to look for? And then the trick is to be honest with yourself. There's been times even in my early career where I might pitch something to my partner and he'll say, if you read that in a script and someone else's script, you'd say, that sucks. And I go, really? I thought it was good. He goes, no, no, you would say it sucks. So then at that point, you got to go, okay, you got to back off. And you don't fight for it. You got to be honest with yourself.Kevin Lewandowski:I think another amazing thing in today's world that didn't really exist when you start out is pretty much any show that's out there right now, you can get access to some version of the script, whether it was a writer's draft or a production draft. IsMichael Jamin:That true? How do you find them?Kevin Lewandowski:I mean, if you just go to Google and you type in Breaking Bad Pilot script, there's going to be versions that you can download. It's always interesting to read those scripts and then watch the first episode and see how much did they change? Because I doubt you'll be able to find necessarily the final shooting draft online, but those first couple writer's drafts are available. And it's always interesting just to see you're reading it and you really, really like this part, but then you watch the episode and they took it out. You're like, oh, okay. That's interesting thatMichael Jamin:If you really wanted up your game, you could also watch the pilot of Breaking Bag and type out the script while you're watching it and then read it later and look for what are the act breaks, literally, what are the act breaks? How do they work? What's the dialogue on that? What's the last line of every scene? What's the dialogue? At the last line,Kevin Lewandowski:When I was doing writer's assistant script coordinate stuff, that's what I used to do to type faster just sit and watch TV and just type out the script as it was happening.Michael Jamin:Wow, good forKevin Lewandowski:You. Because in the room, they don't like it when you say, Hey, can you slow down a little bit? Can I hear that again? No, you got to go.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Okay. Part, what advice would you offer writers to adapt to the inevitable changes in developments expected in the screenwriting field and then years to come? I'm assuming that's in the context of chat, GPT, ai, that kind of stuff.Michael Jamin:Right now, that stuff is being regulated. I don't know of anybody who's using it in a writer's room. That's not to say I could easily be out of the loop, so I don't know. But right now, as far as I know, chat, GPT wasn't a tool. Any writer that I knew was clamoring for, because we all knew if it works, it's going to put us out of a job. So any changes? I don't know. I really don't know. I would just say maybe I'm naive, but stay the course. Figure out how to write without using a computer program or else, because if you're using the computer program, what do we need you for?Kevin Lewandowski:Right. Have you ever just to see what it would look like, just prompt, Chappie, just to write you a random scene just to see what it would look like, and then compare it to your knowledge you have of being a professional writer forMichael Jamin:Many years. Well, a couple of months ago, my partner decided to put some prompts into chat, GPT to come up with story ideas for Come FD for the show we were on. He just read 'em to me. We were both laughing at how terrible they were. It was like a paragraph of what's going to happen in this episode. And it was interesting how it was able to glean what the show was and what it was like, but it was just such an oversimplification of what the show, it lacked any nuance. It was kind of stupid. It was like, nah, that's not, I know. That's what it was almost like asking a 4-year-old what you think the show is and the four year olds. Yeah. Okay. You're right. It's about firemen. Okay, sure. But other than that, the ideas were terrible.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. Another question from NRS creates, what are your thoughts on screenwriting competition websites like Cover Fly and the Blacklist? Is that a good way to get a script into people's hands? Thoughts on one act, scripts, one act plays? Do they have three acts?Michael Jamin:A lot of questions. I think you're the better person to answer the first part.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. So I've definitely submitted to some of those contests just to see A, if I would get any more B, what kind of feedback they would give. And a lot of times it's not very helpful feedback. And you've talked about, you have to question who these people are that are giving feedback, because chances are, they're not professional working writers right now. They would not have the time to go through 20, 30 scripts to give feedback. So chances are these could potentially be recent college graduates that are just doing what they think, what they learned in film school. And interestingly enough, I think Phil, he went through one competition. He sent me what the feedback was, and just reading it, I was like, this sounds very Chat, GPT ai. It was just very, because he sent me other ones he got, and I was like, okay, this feels like a person actually read this. This feels like it could have been put in chat, GPT, write a response based on what you think. And then when I said that to him, he was like, you might be right. He's like, you might be right. Interesting.Michael Jamin:Back when I was writing my book and I submitted to some publishers, whatever, a couple wrote back why they didn't like it, why they didn't want to option the book or whatever, and whatever. A couple of them, their feedback was like, no, it's clear to me you barely read it. Which I understand because these were low level publishing types editors. And on their weekend read, they probably had to read a couple dozen books, manuscripts, they're not going to give it full attention. And I was like, so some of the criticism, I was like, okay, that's a fair criticism. But no, but that is not, there's literally no truth in what you're saying there. You just phoned it in because you have to read so much over the weekend. So I don't know. Got to take, no one's going. I mean, it's the same thing for these websites. Are they really going to put their heart and soul into it? No. Why would TheyKevin Lewandowski:Don't care. They just want theMichael Jamin:Money. Yeah. Why would they? Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:You think about someone in your position giving feedback to a fellow writer that might take you two and a half hours, read the script, think about your notes, and then put 'em in a format to be able to explain them to the writer. And I don't think these people in those competitions are doing that. They probably just read it once and write down what they think. And it's funny how some of them, it's what would you rank the character dialogue on a one to 10, and they write six and a half. It's like,Michael Jamin:Where are you gettingKevin Lewandowski:That from? One is six and half. So then what would've gotten me an eight or an half or a nine?Michael Jamin:One of the things we just started doing on their website, if you have the course, our screenwriting course, I have a couple of friends who are high level writers who are willing to give notes. But here's the thing, you're going to pay. It's not cheap. You're going to pay these people to sit down and read your damn script for two or three hours and they're not getting $10 an hour. That's not what they're going to get. I don't know what you get paid for,Kevin Lewandowski:I guess. So is this a good way to get your script into people's hands? So I think, yeah, mean it's technically people's hands, but I don't know ifMichael Jamin:I don't think they're the right hands.Kevin Lewandowski:Feedback is going to be any valuable. And then thoughts on one X Scripts. One X plays, do they have three x inherently?Michael Jamin:That's an interesting question. Do they have three acts? I would say yes, in terms of the structure, in terms of what makes something compelling, but not necessarily, I guess I've written some stories in my book that don't fall into the traditional three Acts structure, but they come close. They definitely come close to it. And that's just because, well, it doesn't really matter why, but you can't go wrong. You really can't go wrong if you structure something like the way we teach.Kevin Lewandowski:So in your opinion, because heard, sometimes people use a five act structure, and I think for me, I think it's basically the same three act structure, but so act one will be act one, and then Act two isMichael Jamin:ActKevin Lewandowski:Two A and then Act two B. And so it's kind of broken up like that. So for me,Michael Jamin:Well, Shakespeare wrote that way. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:And he's all right. He did.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I mean, I just think it's easier not to write. I just think three is easier to get your head around. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. I think just the thought of hearing the words, so writing five acts, that just sounds like it can be a lot, but if you could be like, oh, three acts, okay, I can do that.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Right. Anyone could do that. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Next topic, breaking in. DJ asked when starting out to obtain that experience, what sort of job should one be searching for, staff, writer, assistant, et cetera?Michael Jamin:You should be searching for the production assistant job anywhere, and eventually, after a season or two, see if you can move to a job that's closer to the writer's room. Physically, let's do what Kevin did. That's what he did.Kevin Lewandowski:And I think there's a staff writer that's obviously not entry level assistant. There's various assistant positions you could do production assistant, you can do showrunners, assistant executive assistant. I think one of the, or the terminologies people may get confused is writer's production assistant and then writer's assistant. And the writer's production assistant is the one that's responsible for getting the lunches, stocking the kitchen, making copies, things like that. And the writer's assistant is the one that sits in the room, types up the notes and the jokes that are being pitched. And they work closely with the script coordinator. And as you've said, many times, the writer's assistant is not an entry level job. It can be very intensive times.Michael Jamin:And for what's worth, I've worked with several assistants, either writer's, assistant production assistants, who've since gone on to become staff writers have had successful careers. So it's not like many. So Kevin, hopefully you'll be next.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah, I'm hoping so too. Next question, Sammy. ak. So the best way to get a foot in the door to support and learn the biz write in assistant or pa, we kind of just answer that. Yeah. Production assistant is that entry level. You're kind of just the gopher and you're the whatever they kind of need you go do, and you prove yourself to those people above you. And they notice. Notice people notice when you're either calling it in or you're really going above and beyond to make whoever's ahead of you life a little bit easier. Yeah. All right. Now we got some miscellaneous. Oh, here's a fun question. Tulio, how close are you to officially publishing your book, Michael,Michael Jamin:It's already out tulio. You can go get it. You can find it. Sign copies are available@michaeljamin.com slash book. Or you could search for a paper orchestra on Amazon or Barnes and Noble, or the audio book on Audible or Spotify or Apple. How about that?Kevin Lewandowski:Get the book. Everyone get the book. The comment to address from Jonathan Loudon, real world dilemma. I like this. Can't get experience without getting hired. Can't get hired without experience. That's why, who is such a reality?Michael Jamin:Well, but if you're starting off in an entry level position, you don't need to know anybody. You just have to put yourself out there. And then in terms of knowing someone later in your job, well, now you already know people. Now you broke because entry levels, literally, you have a pulse in a car. So I find that it's a convenient excuse. Put yourself out there, and Kevin, you didn't have any contacts when you broke into Hollywood. None. So there you go.Kevin Lewandowski:You just got to knock on some doors. I think people that work in the industry, they know kind of how it works. Once you break in, you become a pa, and you make those network connections with production coordinators that you've worked with and people on the show, and you build those genuine relationships and you do good. Then when they go to the next show and they're like, Hey, we need someone, then they'll reach out to you andMichael Jamin:They're not reaching out for you because they're as a favor to you. They're reaching out to you because we need to hire someone. And I don't really want to spend days interviewing.Kevin Lewandowski:I already know you can do the job. It's so much easier just to bring you aboard.Michael Jamin:Yeah, right. It's not like a favor to you. It's a favor to them.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah.Michael Jamin:You are listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, A Collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timal. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time, his knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and Kirker View says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book, and now back to our show.Kevin Lewandowski:Next question, all nighters cinema, what makes your script stand out? If it's a book adaptation and the story isn't your original story,Michael Jamin:Well, do you have the rights to adapt? A book is one question. So if you don't, I probably wouldn't adapt it. And that's not to say that when people think you adapt a book, you still have to have these act break pops. These scenes have to unfold. It's not like books are a slam dunk to adapt. I mean, there's definitely some art and craft that has to be applied to turning into a script. So that's how you make it stand out.Kevin Lewandowski:And I think one of the other things you like to say is if you have a book, there might be a few different stories happening throughout that book. And in your paper orchestra, one of the examples you get, oh, I forget what it was called about the swing dance, and I forgot that chapterMichael Jamin:Was called Yes, swing and a Miss.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. As you said, there was other stuff happening at that point in your life, but it was just this story was the one you wanted to tell. Of course you were going to work and doing stuff like that, but this was the story you wanted to tell.Michael Jamin:Right. And also, how many times have you seen they've adapted a book, I don't know, a popular book into a TV show movie? And sometimes it's good and sometimes it's bad. It's because it's not as simple as simply typing the book.Kevin Lewandowski:And a lot of times people say the book was even better or the book was better anyways. And I mean, it's hard to take 300 pages of a book and consented toMichael Jamin:An hour and a half movie. Right.Kevin Lewandowski:David Sallow, what if you a show idea that you have done the work on and think it uniquely speaks to the present moment? Are there any shortcuts possible there or noMichael Jamin:Shortcuts to what? You got to write a script. Yeah. There's no shortcuts to write in a good script, and there's no shortcuts to selling it. There's no shortcuts anywhere. Shortcuts. When does shortcuts ever work? I don't know. Where are the shortcuts? Yeah, little Ed riding Hood. Other than that, in real life, you got to put the work in. Right.Kevin Lewandowski:Do you ever watch the, there's a documentary about the South Park creators and how from they, from blank page to delivering the episode, how many days do you think,Michael Jamin:Well, I know they're super fast, so I would say five,Kevin Lewandowski:Six.Michael Jamin:Six.Kevin Lewandowski:Okay. Six days. That's very fast. They are delivering it like a half hour before it's supposed to. Yeah.Michael Jamin:And that's because the animation process is so crude that they can do it so quickly, but that's fast,Kevin Lewandowski:And we've just gotten used to it that way. So I think with them in an interesting way, that's why their shows seem like their current and present, because something could have happened in the news last week, and

On this week's episode, we have actor Jamie Kaler (My Boys, Tacoma FD, Robot Chicken and many many more) and we talk about his career path as well as his experiences doing stand-up. There's so much more so make sure you tune in.Show NotesJamie KalerIMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0435695/Jamie Kaler on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_KalerJamie Kaler on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jamiekaler/?hl=enJamie Kaler on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/jamiekalerA Paper Orchestra on Website: https://michaeljamin.com/bookA Paper Orchestra on Audible: https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestraFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptJamie Kaler:He goes, Hey, just so you know, when you do watch it, we were running long for time. So we cut the tag. I go, you mean the reveal where I kissed the woman? He goes, yeah, we ran out of time and we cut it. I go, then everything I did up to that moment has no justification whatsoever because this is the craziest thing. He goes, I know. He goes, what are you going to do with tv? I go, all, whatever. And I moved on and I was like, couldn't care less. ButMichael Jamin:You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase And to support me in this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show.Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Well, today I'm talking about acting with my guest, Jamie Kaler. This guy, before I bring him on this guy's credits are crazy. He works a lot and so I'm going to blow, yeah, blow through. I'm going to do the abridge version. If not, we'll be here all day, but I'm going to go way back. I'm on IM db now. I'm only doing the ones that I decide are highlights. But Jag, he's been on Fringe Friends. Suddenly. Susan Carnival, third Rock in the Sun, king of Queens, grounded for Life, married to the Kelly's Arrested Development, Spanglish, seventies show. What else Will and Grace, the Family Stone? Who remembers that? Monk New Adventures of Old Christine Sons and Daughters. How I Met Your mother, my boys. We know 'em from that. And then did I say Parenthood? Did I say shake it up? Did I say Austin and Allie? Did I say Teachers of the Year? I don't remember. I'm skipping crazy Ex-girlfriend. Jesus, dude. It doesn't end the middle Dads in Parks. Oh, we'll talk about that. Heather's robot Chicken. American Housewife. Most recently Taco fd where my partner and I created the character of Polanski. Jamie, that was exhausting. Are we done with the interview now?Jamie Kaler:Honestly, it was so much fun being here, man. All right, everybody, take care. See you later.Michael Jamin:That was such good advice. Sorry, you guys all missed it. Dude, you've been around. How did you get into acting? How does someone get into acting? By the way,Jamie Kaler:People ask me nowadays, and I go, dude, it's nothing. I mean now it's like don't even move to la just start a YouTube channel in upstate Minnesota and try to blow up. And then once you have a following, then you're set.Michael Jamin:But we were talking about on your podcast, the parent lounge, but I know you think it's like a burden, but I think it actually works in your advantage to you, to your advantage because you're really good at it. You're good. You have a great social media presence. You're quick on your feet. It seems to me this, even though it requires more work for you, it actually works in your favor. No,Jamie Kaler:You mean social media doing it this way? Yeah, of course it is, but I already did it. So now I'm kind of the same way that I used to go buy wigs and glue on mustaches and actually lit myself on fire on stage at Acme Comedy Theater when I was doing crazy shows on Friday and Saturday nights in the nineties with that fervor of what are we doing today? We're going to Goodwill, we're going to get some costumes, here we go. And I remember renting equipment, trying to shoot shorts and trying to clerks, and Ed Burns had made the brothers McMullan or whatever, and it was like, come on, we're making film. It was super hard and it was painful and it was costly. And nowadays you can do it with your phone. But I'm older, I don't quite have the drive. I also am watching two little kids.So the time in the day is where I used to go, this is my day. I'm going to go do this now. I'm like, I dropped the kids at school. I had to go to the cleaners. I taking care of the two kids. I got to pick them up. I'm coaching soccer today. So yes, I will say though, especially watching you and you're a writer, but now you have to become a social media guru to get people to see what you've created and you're an artist. But nowadays, gosh, I was posting something this morning about the pregnant pause is gone pretty soon. Humans are going to evolve where the eyes instead of side by side are over the top of each other because horizontal's over everything's vertical. We need to flip our eyes. And years from now, no one will take a breath because we've dictated that. The breath makes people lose attention though. You can take a pause. People goMichael Jamin:Done. IJamie Kaler:Can't. He took a breath. I can't.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I mean, here's the thing. So I just had this conversation yesterday. I dropped an audio audiobook, and so some woman said I was doing a live, she goes, oh, I bought your audiobook. I love it, but I listened to it on one and a quarter speed. But I'm like, but when I take a pause, it's because I want to put a pause there. I want to give you a moment to soak it in. It's not arbitrary.Jamie Kaler:I wanted to take a Richard Pryor act from his comedy special and cut all the air out of it. And so you would take a 50 minute, one hour special where there's a groove. He's in the moment. It would be like if you took Buddy Rich and you took all the space between the drum beats out. You're like, a lot of the art is in the space, and we have forgotten that. And now it's like it's a machine gun or people's brains shut off.Michael Jamin:This is something when we're shooting a sitcom, often, we'll tell the actor, make sure you hold for a laugh here. Hold for the laugh. You will get one. Yeah. What do we do about this?Jamie Kaler:Well, I don't know because I was watching, have you watched Show Gun?Michael Jamin:No. Am I supposed to watch that?Jamie Kaler:It's new. It's based on the book. Oh my gosh, it's glorious. I had never read the book. 16 hundreds. Futile Japan, A simple, brutal, vicious life of it's gorgeous. They had a full society. It's like the 16 hundreds. Wait,Michael Jamin:Where am I watching this? What can I get?Jamie Kaler:It's on FX and on Hulu and Portuguese and Portugal and England are the two powerhouses on the earth, and they are at war, and they're basically fighting for ownership of the east, even though the east are, they're like, wait, we're here. No one's going to own us. So it's all about that, but it's just this beautifully, I mean, it's like art. It's like going to the museum, seeing this story unfold, but people's brains nowadays, some do just riddling. 30 seconds of garbage on TikTok will get a gillion times more views than that. Because I talked to somebody who said, Hey, have you seen Shogun? Someone's like, oh, it just seems slow. And I was like, it's one of the greatest stories of all time. It's one of the bestselling books of all time. It's history and gorgeous and art, and it's beautifully shot. And they're like, ah, boring. I don't have time for that crap.Michael Jamin:We have, right? So what do we doJamie Kaler:If everything accelerates? There has to be a point where the human brain, it's like when they go, oh, this TV's 4K, and you're like, dude, I'm in my fifties. I can't even see 5K. I can't see any K anymore. It's like so resolution. It doesn't really matter. At some point your brain can't acceptMichael Jamin:It. Well, worse than that, so my TVs, I have a nice plasma plasma, but it's probably 15 years old at a cost a fortune when I got it. But the new ones, the resolution's so clear, it kind of looks like you're watching a bad TV show. You know what I'm saying? You watch a expensive movie and it looks like it's bad TV because I'm seeing too much.Jamie Kaler:The human face is not supposed to be seen with that much resolution. You see people and you're like, oh, that dude had a rough nightMichael Jamin:Where youJamie Kaler:Used to be able to hide it, and now you're like, no, no, no, no.Michael Jamin:Right? But then now have you had these conversations with your agent and your managers, or is this just when we were talking about building your social media following, are they telling you this or are you just like, your friends are doing it now? I got to do it too.Jamie Kaler:You mean why try to build this? Well, it's also, listen, it's funny because my wife will give me grief sometimes, and she goes, your stories are too slow. Which is crazy because I'm one of the fastest speakers who's ever lived. Sometimes when I'm working, people go, you need to bring it down a little bit. But on social media, if I don't want to sit and take a 92nd video and edit it down to a minute to take out the 30 seconds of pauses, because some guy, but that's the dilemma. Everything's the lowest common denominator. The jokes are I see something that blows up and I go, that was a great joke when George Carlin told that in 1972, and it was really well written and scripted, and now you've kind of bastardized it and you've put it into a ten second with no, your speaking voice is intolerable. But I get it, that's what people want. They're scrolling through and you're like, that's how it works. So I'm also a dinosaur man. It's like my daughters are 10 and they're already do flying through stuff. I mean, I don't know how to stop it.Michael Jamin:Do you know people, I mean, obviously back in the day when you'd go to auditions now everything's you submit. But back in the day, I'm sure you were going to audition and they're the same 10 actors that you would see trying out for the same part. Do you think they're doing the same thing that you're doing building of social media presence?Jamie Kaler:Well, I think you have to. Nowadays, honestly, I see that the social media presence, it is number one, you don't have to go learn how to act. You don't have to learn how to be a standup comic. You don't have to learn these skills and slowly build your way up the top. You do it because you're a personality. People are intrigued, not by people who are, they're intrigued by humans. It's a voyeuristic thing, I think, where people are like, you'll see somebody and they're just talking to camera. They're not even good speakers. There's something off. There's a crazy story. And maybe they've just been doing it for 15 straight years and built up a following and put some money behind it, put some ads, made sure they got some clicks. Maybe they bought a few followers, and you're like, but the craft, the art of what you do as a writer. I mean, is it slowly falling? But that's the problem nowadays with my kids, we just got the report cards and really good grades, but you can see on the standardized test, they're reading is starting to slip because kids don't read. It's too slow for them. Their brain is like, well, they just can't slow. People cannot slow down anymore. And it's Where does it goMichael Jamin:From here? I dunno, but I have to say that. So a lot of this is, I don't think this is coming from producers. I was on a show a few years ago, maybe let's say 10 years ago, and the studio or the network rather wanted us to cast a guy with a big social media following for this role. And I'm like, wait, really? Why? What about an act? Can we just get an actor? This Hollywood? Aren't there actors everywhere? And it's because networks are having a hard time marketing their show. And these people with followings, they can market their own show.Jamie Kaler:Kevin Hart. I mean, I remember something. They were like, well, you're going to post about the movie. And he's like, if you pay me, and they were like, why would we pay you? You're in the movie. He goes, yeah, you paid me for my acting services now you want me to be your publicist. If you want me to publicize this film, you will pay me for it because I accumulated these 50 million followers on my own. Why would I just give it to you?Michael Jamin:But here's where I'm curious about that though. I'm not sure if he doesn't post, I get his point, why should I do the marketing as well? But if he doesn't do the marketing, it'll hurt him for his next movie because it won't perform as well in the box office. You know what I'm saying?Jamie Kaler:Yes. It's a double-edged sword. But I also think he doesn't care.Michael Jamin:HeJamie Kaler:Doesn't care. He doesn't care because he has that following. He will, and they'll put it into the budget. I'm sure the agents and managers are like, all right, so this is his money that you're going to pay him. This is part of the marketing fee you're going to. And listen, I totally understand it. I'm sure I've lost parts because people have gone over to go, his following is not as big as this guy. At the end of the day, could a ton of other people played Polanski? Absolutely. Would they have huge followings? Yes, of course. So I feel lucky anytime I get a job to promote it, I feel like I'm qualified for that job. But I also know it's, you look back at the history of film and Philip Seymour Hoffman died, the five projects he had ready to go, they just replaced him.He's arguably one of the greatest actors of our generation. Nobody missed a beat. So are we all replaceable? Absolutely. Are we lucky to be in the business? Yeah. I mean, I would argue writers are more necessary because you're creating the project to start with. But as an actor, unless you're Daniel Day Lewis or somebody who's that crazy of a craft, then it's about chemistry, I think. Anyway. But you have to, those people are trying to get their films out, and so there's so much white noise on a daily basis that to cut through that, they're like, well, if this guy has 5 million followers and he puts up one post, what they don't see is that only 3% of those 5 million people even see. But thisMichael Jamin:Is where I think the studios and the networks have really screwed up royally, is that they haven't figured out a way to build their own brand. So my wife and I will watch a movie or a TV show, we'll get halfway through it and all the night, we'll say, let's watch the rest tomorrow. Almost all the time. I forget where I watched it, and now I have to search, was it on Netflix? Did I watch it on Amazon? Where did I watch this? Because there's no brand anymore without a brand. They can't market their shows. They have to rely on other me and you to market their shows. It puts us in the driver's seat, not them. This is like a major blunder on their parts, I feel.Jamie Kaler:It's not just them. I'd say standup clubs, back in the day, you did a bunch of shows. You finally put a tape together, you sent it to a club. The club had a following, the club had the following. And you knew if you went to that club, you were going to see Richard, Jenny, Brian Regan, Jerry Seinfeld, you knew these guys. Whatever show you went to, you were going to be surprised, but you'd be like, man, those guys are really funny. Nowadays, the club is literally a rental space that you bring the following to. That's why they book influencers who have millions of followers, and then they get on stage. And I guess some are good and some maybe don't have, it's a different skill levelMichael Jamin:When you go, do you still perform comedy standJamie Kaler:Up? I do. I used to tour a ton before the kids, and I was on the road all the time. And then once the kids were born, I didn't really want to do that as much. So now I stay home. So I kind of cherry pick gigs to go out for. And the road's a lot different, I feel like, than it used to be.Michael Jamin:So do you feel the quality of the standups, they're not quite as good anymore? Some people are, would you sound like old men? Which one is it?Jamie Kaler:Absolutely. And I say that all the time. I'm a dinosaur. But I will say that maybe the skill nowadays is not being a standup comic, but being a social media manipulator. And I mean that it's always been the skill. People used to hire publicists even back then, and I never did. And they'd be in People Magazine and I'd be like, what's the point of all that? And then as I got older, I was like, oh, fame allows you to do the jobs you want to do. That's really the trick. But I mean, to be Tom Cruise, I never wanted that because that dude can't leave his house. He can't just go to the supermarket, can't go to a park. I never wanted that. But that makes him and DiCaprio, those are the guys that are Johnny Greenlight. They get the first choice of scripts. And so they are allowed to do these amazing jobs that because how many people do you think nowadays can sell a picture?Michael Jamin:Oh, yeah. I mean, that's the whole thing. Or can open, I don't know. Do you think it's more or less, I guess I would imagine it's probably less now. I mean, because celebrities changed. What do you think?Jamie Kaler:I think the era of the movie Star is over. IMichael Jamin:Think Tom CruiseJamie Kaler:And Brad Pitt and DiCaprio, are they going to be the end of, and Damon are going to be the end of it? I mean, no. You see one of her on Netflix and it's like a TikTok, Charlie Delio. I haven't seen it. Maybe she's a wonderful actress. I don't know. But you go up through that ranks and all of a sudden you have 12 million followers or whatever, and then you could sell, I mean, it's Kardashian really was, we all gave her grief, but in retrospect, they were the smartest people in the room. They saw it coming to their credit and made a gillion dollars off of it, whether that's what you want to do with your life. But my kids kids want to start a YouTube page and a TikTok, and I'm like, she's 10. She's 10 years old. That'sMichael Jamin:Too soon.Jamie Kaler:Yeah. I mean, can everyone on earth just be, can we keep an economy running if everyone's just an influencer? I don't know.Michael Jamin:Well, there's the big question, right? If everyone's trying to, yeah, IJamie Kaler:Mean, look at what you're doing. You wrote a book, you sat down, probably took quite a while. It's a very good book. Thank you. I've read it and it's like, but the point is, almost everybody's wrote in a book now, and everybody's a standup comic and everyone's a performer. And back when I did it, it was like people were like, oh my God, you do standup. I'm would never do that. I'm terrified now. I'll be it like a supermarket. And some woman's like, some grandma's like, oh, I do stand up every Tuesday night at retirement home. And you're like, it'sMichael Jamin:Not. But I also feel like you're reinventing yourself, though. I mean, that's got to be exciting and interesting. No, orJamie Kaler:Of course it is. Of course it is. I do listen. I love doing it. And everyone else, it's a love hate relationship because I'll think of something immediately, I'll put together a little funny bit that I, it's like a standup bit or something, and then I'll be able to share it with all my fans and they will respond accordingly. And you're like, oh yeah, this actually is a pretty good, I just also think we're the learning curve. We're the first generation to go through all this.Michael Jamin:Wait, let me tell you how I hoard myself out this morning. So I wondered, because I'm posting a lot to promote my book. I'm doing a lot of lives, and I'm like, I see other people do lives, and I'm not sure what that magic is. They're cooking eggs or whatever. Are we watching this person cooking eggs? Is this right? So I'm like, all right. I told my wife, today's pushup day. So I'm like, all right, I guess maybe I'll just do pushups and people will that work. And I did pushups on live and I don't know, 20 people watched. And I was like, I felt kind of stupid about the whole thing, but people were watching, I don't know, is this what I got to do now,Jamie Kaler:Pushups, I fear it is. If that's what you want to do for a living, I think this is, if you want to be in this business, I think that's the necessity of it. To be honest, I'm not sure I would've ever signed up for this if I knew, although when I was younger, I probably would've like, Ugh, I would've been Truman shown the wholeMichael Jamin:Thing, right? But you wouldn't.Jamie Kaler:I do wonder, my kids, I think they were at their friend's house or something, and they Googled me. They told me, and they're getting to that age, and I'm like, uhoh, what did you watch? And they watched some crazy video I did where I said something stupid or whatever. And I don't know if every moment of our lives is supposed to be captured. I don't know what the answer is. I have such a love hate certain days. I wake up and I go, even this morning I was telling you I was writing a bit about something or other. And then another day I'll wake up and I go, I don't want to do any of it. I just want to go golf. And that was the beauty. I became an actor because it was the easiest thing. I worked hard to become a good actor. I took classes, worked on my craft, but I wasn't, I wasn't on 24 7 trying,Michael Jamin:Tell me if you feel this way, because if I don't, I try to post almost every day. And if I take one or two days off, that turns into three or four. You know what I'm saying? It gets easy not to do it.Jamie Kaler:Of course, of course. But do you feel guilty after those two or three days? Do you have any guilt or do you actually go, oh, what am I doing? This feels great.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it is mixed like you're saying, but a lot of it is like, this is my job. This is how you get a book out there. This is how you can, I work so hard not to work. You know what I'm saying?Jamie Kaler:I'm working harder now than I ever did when all those credits were being made. Yeah,I would bust my ass. I would get ready. And also acting is about physicality. I would make sure I was in shape. I'd work out, I'd do all this stuff, and then I would go either do an audition and then there'd be downtime, and you'd be like, all right. All right. And then you'd kind of ramp it up again. Now it's like just constant blinders on of, and then the problem also I see is the follow-up. When you performed on stage, you either got to laugh right then and there, and you moved on. But now my wife, we have long conversations on Instagram as well.Michael Jamin:What does she do? What does she do on Instagram? What does she, I don't even know what does, sheJamie Kaler:Works in the pharmaceutical industry.Michael Jamin:So why is she, oh, I think you told me. Why is she on Instagram? Oh, does she post on Instagram?Jamie Kaler:She posts, but she has her own page, and then so she's very specific about it. She'll edit and quiz me and I go, do you want to hear my, I don't care. Nobody cares. Just post it. But it's like, well, what do you think this picture or this? I go, nobody cares. What song do you think this song? Is this song saying too much about me? Or should I feel like maybe I should use it? Should it just be instrumental? I go, okay, I don't care. The trick is to post and walk away. And then people will, for the rest of the day, scroll, because it's the dopamine of like, oh, so-and-So ooh, did you know? So-and-So just like that post I put up this morning, I don't know where this ends, but I find that some days if I just do something physical where I'm digging in the garden in the backyard, it's the greatest three hours of my life where I'm like, I didn't think about anything. I don't know. I don't know where it ends, but yeah. But we're also too, get off my lawn old guys who are like, why? You might have kids,Michael Jamin:But how much time do you think you put on social media every day, either way that you're working on or thinking of working on it or whatever?Jamie Kaler:Well, so I wasn't really, I never cared. I never cared. It was just recently that I've started to make an effort during the pandemic kind of destroyed me. I stayed with two kids. I had a kindergartner and a second grader, and my wife was working 12 hours a day. We have an office in the house where she was gone. Oh, wow. We didn't see her for 12 hours a, and I think part of it, she was hiding because it was the pandemic. We also having construction done on the house, it was arguably the worst time in my life. So I was trying to maintain the kids. So I printed out schedules. I made them put their school uniforms on. I took two desks. I set them up on opposite ends of the house. They were doing it on Zoom, but one's in kindergarten and one's on second grade.So they weren't old enough to really go. I got it at nine 40. They'd be released for recess. I'd have to get them snacks at 1130. It was lunch at two 50. School ended, and then we were trying to maintain sanity. So I started this kind of parental mental health zoom at night. And obviously we were drinking extensively pandemic mental health, but drinking, it was mental health, and we were sipping hardcore and sharing horrible stories. And so it grew into this. I started this thing called the Dad Lands, and it just grew. It was just Zoom. It wasn't even a podcast or anything. And that kind of caught on. I mean, there were guys, I was like, dude, don't kill yourself. We're going to get through this thing guys. Were hanging on by a thread. And we made ourselves all feel better because we were seeing that everyone else was going through this nightmare.And that eventually grew into the Parents Lounge podcast with my other buddy who was in it. He was doing Dad Apocalypse. I was doing Dad Lands. We started a podcast. I'm not a promoter, so I really love doing the podcast. We were doing it live. You've come and done it. The parents lounge, it's super fun. It's a parental mental health night. I've kind of laid off the sauce since then, and all of a sudden it kind of grew into this thing, but we never marketed it. We would just throw it out there and then the other dude would put it up on iTunes, but we wouldn't even put a post of like, Hey, Dave Ners on this Monday. Nothing. Just threw it in the ocean, because I don't want to be a marketer. I didn't move to Hollywood to be a publicist. It's not what I do.So finally, we're at the crap or get off the pot phase of look, we have a pretty good following, considering we haven't put one ounce of work into the promotional part of it. And so finally, everyone's like, look, dude, you either have to become a promoter or you are wasting your time. You need to monetize. We could do some live gigs here and there, but all of a sudden ruffle came in, Justin ruffle was our partner in this thing. And all of a sudden everyone's like, all right, so I committed. I'm committing to trying like you with a book where I feel like we have a really great product. How do we get people to see it? And you're like, this is the way to do it. So we went out and I enjoy stuff like this where we have conversations and we get in depth on stuff. But as far as just constantly putting up a story with a link to the podcast to do this and stuff, well,Michael Jamin:That you can outsource, that's easy. We'reJamie Kaler:Outsourcing it. And so we finally started outsourcing it, and I hadn't outsourced it at all, but it's like I equate it to the Gold Rush. It's like the people who really got rich during the Gold Rush where Levi Strauss and Woolworth and the guys who sold the Pickaxes. So at some point, I should become the outsource guy or something. But yeah.Michael Jamin:Do you see, okay, what are your aspirations with the show? What would you like it to become, if anything?Jamie Kaler:So I love doing the show. I would love a strong following where we've kind of branched off to do other stuff. But honestly, live shows. We have done a few and we're starting to book more. And then to monetize it to a degree, once you start putting all the work into it, you're like, well, maybe we should at least see something. But theMichael Jamin:Live show, you have to produce, you got to bring in equipment mics, you've got to mix it. No, justJamie Kaler:Literally as comics, we show up. I can't tell you the last time I soundcheck, ohMichael Jamin:Wait, wait,Jamie Kaler:We're doing the podcast live. You're talking about, but we do it as here's the beauty of what we do. We're already standups. That was a headline in comic touring the country. I did Montreal Comedy Festival. I've been on late night tv. So for me, that's the easy part. When I used to do standup, it was never about the show. It was more I would peek out and go, is anybody here? And the smartest guys on earth were s, Agora Rogan, Cher Joe, coy, who not only were great comics, but they were also really good at marketing themselves. And so those guys were doing mailing lists for 30 years and building, and I wasn't. I would go sets went great, crush it, and then go have a couple cocktails at the bar. I didn't have kids either. I didn't really care about trying to blow it up. So it was never about the show. It was about getting eyes on it. And I feel like that's where we're at now. We have such a strong, every time we go do it, we crush live. And the question is, how do we get other parents and people to go? This would be a great show to come to. That's really the marketing part of it.Michael Jamin:The tour as Right? Is it all, so it's improv or is it scripted, or what is theJamie Kaler:Show? We have acts, I have two albums on iTunes.Michael Jamin:Oh, okay. So it's a comedy show show.Jamie Kaler:It's a standup comedy show that the Skis is a podcast, really. And we would bring our guests with us, maybe we talked about having Lemi and Heffernan come out and do the podcast live with those guys, but it would be billed as the parents lounge live with these special guests. But it's really a standup show for the audience with under the guise of a podcast. And we have bits and we would do improvisational stuff set up and questions with the audience, for the guests and for everybody else. But we just did, and we did it in Sara, Pennsylvania in the fall. And it was like two hours of just, I'm not even sure I touched that much of my material. We were, we were riffing hard, but we always had the material to step back on. It's like that's my favorite is you have these tracks, but you get off the tracks, you fool around. And if all of a sudden it starts to lag a little bit, you go, all right, here's some bits and then bring 'em back in.Michael Jamin:You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, A collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timal. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity. And Kirks Review says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book. And now back to our show.I mean, I don't know. I see people doing it online. I'd be doing exactly what you're saying. They take their podcast on the road and somehow, how do you think they're selling tickets though?Jamie Kaler:Because their followings are so strong that people, a lot of times also, I see these shows, and to me, the shows, I go, there's no show here. It's just this guy showed up. It's basically a two hour meet and greet. But honestly, that's what some people love. They don't even care. They just want to be in the same room. The guy will tell a couple stories, they'll play some bits on, they'll play bits on a screen and make it a show and they'll record the podcast live. But people are so enthralled by people chatting, I really missed my window. It really was my strong suit back in the day of just riffing and going along with stuff and being in the moment and chatting. But podcasts wasn't happening. And at the time when podcasts started, I was like, are we going back to radio? Why would people listen to podcasts? I was shocked. And yet offMichael Jamin:They were. But your brand is, you're trying to aim it towards parents or men dads, is that right?Jamie Kaler:Well, it's all parents and no, we've toured with moms. We usually take out moms. We've had Tammy Pesca, Kira svi on the show, Betsy Stover. We just had Nicole Birch. I mean, I think you need a mom's point of view. So when we do live shows, we typically bring out a mom as well with us.Michael Jamin:But you're talking, but is the focus basically on kids and parenting?Jamie Kaler:It is to a degree. But I also, sometimes we'll watch some of those shows and it's like sometimes parents don't want to talk about kids, so we kind of go where we go, and it's about life. The whole thing was trying to get people to understand that you see Instagram and you think your life. You're like, why isn't my life like that? The point of our podcast is really to go, nobody's life like that, dude. I mean, when's the last time you met someone who just was not absolutely full of shit? Have you met anybody who's not just full of shit? Anyone? Well,Michael Jamin:The thing is, especially in Hollywood, a lot of people were trying to hype themselves up. And I discovered early on, this is 30 years ago, that was the people who were talking most about their career really had nothing going on. And the people who didn't talk about it, they didn't talk about specifically, they didn't want people to hit 'em up for a job.Jamie Kaler:Know what I'm saying? And I said that exact 0.2 days ago, I was talking to Lori Kmar and she was just saying the same when I got here, if you were the one who were like, look at me, look at me. People were like, that guy's a loser.It was almost, and then all of a sudden, humble, I blame it on humble brag, humble brag. Do you remember hashtag Humble brag? That was the first one where people, it's really just a brag. You see humble, but you're really just bragging. But back in the day, I remember doing Friends and Will and Grace, and it was big. It was big. And I really didn't tell anybody. People would come in and talk to me and go, dude, were you weren't friends last night. And I was like, I was. And they go, why wouldn't you tell us? And I go, it seems dirty. I felt dirty bragging about what I was doing. But nowadays,

On November 18th, I hosted a webinar called "How Professional Screenwriters Create Great Characters", where I talked about how to come up with interesting and unique characters, as well as how tapping into your everyday life interactions with people can help with this. This episode addresses questions you asked in our Q&A session that we didn't have time to answer. There's lots of great info here, make sure you watch.Show NotesA Paper Orchestra on Website: - https://michaeljamin.com/bookA Paper Orchestra on Audible: - https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: - https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestraFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:And why are we rooting for him? We're rooting for this meek man who's going to die soon to make some money for his family, but also to feel like he's alive for the first time in his life because he's just lived this very meek existence. And so that's why we're rooting for him. That's why we like him. And when he makes mistakes, he may go off track, but we hope he comes back. We're still rooting for him. You are listening to What The Hell Is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase and to support me on this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show. Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin and you're listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Well, today we're doing another q and a from II's free writing webinars, and there's a lot of questions that people had. We couldn't answer 'em all on the end. We ran out of time, and so we're going to address 'em here. But this episode, Phil, I'm here with Phil Hudson.Phil Hudson:What up, Phil?Michael Jamin:Today's episode is brought to you by a paper orchestra, which is my collection of personal essays. It's David Saris meets Neil Simon on sale on my website, michael jamin.com, or you can find it anywhere. Books are sold, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, apple Books, all those places. Go get it. Go check it out. It's a fun read. Yeah. Okay.Phil Hudson:Worth checking out all the versions though too. I was just listening to the audio book and we talked about this in your episode about the book itself, but the music cues and the intros, very well done. Very well produced. You're also telling me about, thank you, Phil, how hellacious of a process it was to do itMichael Jamin:ToPhil Hudson:The quality you like.Michael Jamin:Yes. Because you only get to put it out once, but yeah. But thank you. So Phil got the audio book, but it's available ebook and print as well, however you consume your written materials. Love it. Alright, Phil, we got some questions. Enough about me. Let's ask me some questions.Phil Hudson:Yeah, let's talk to you some more about you. This is from the November 18th webinar. These are like you said, q and A stuff, and the topic of this webinar was how professional screenwriters create great characters. This was, I think, a first run on this topic. You hadn't done this topic before.Michael Jamin:It could be. Yeah, this was a good one. Yeah, this turned out to be a good one I thought.Phil Hudson:I think so too. We can tell, there's some metrics we can tell in terms of how long people stay, questions that are asked, how long it goes. And I was going to say too, we didn't get to these questions because typically when we first started doing this almost a year ago, February will be a year doing these. It was like 30 minutes of lesson and then it was a bunch of q and a and that has transitioned into about 45 minutes of lesson and then a little bit of q and a where we can get it. And then we even have VIPQ and A now where you can just pay a small fee to join for an hour after and you just talk to people on Zoom and they get to go live and ask you questions and some really, really good questions being asked in that. So if you're interested in attending these webinars, go to michael jamin.com/webinar where you can sign up for that. But then you can also sign up on that page to get into the VIP. If you want to ask Michael directly a question that you have if youMichael Jamin:Can't get to it. So to be clear, the webinars are always free, and if you want to spend extra time with me, that costs you something. But I should also say right now it seems like we have four that we're going to have a rotation, but we may keep adding different topics, but right now we have four good ones, so if you missed it, just sign up and maybe we'll do it again. CorrectPhil Hudson:Me if I'm wrong, but I think some of the topics you've come up with have come from the q and a that you do on these topics. How do I overcome? Writer's block are like, I'm really struggling with a character or development. So they kind of incept the idea of like, okay, here's a topic we should go down. So lots of great value there. Alright, well again, just for housekeeping, we do split these up into topics. So we have kind of general topics. We have craft breaking in questions related to your course or the webinar topic and then miscellaneous. So we're going to start with K Craft. I think again, people want to know how to do the job, which I think is helpful.Michael Jamin:Yes.Phil Hudson:So Chad, Chad Siime or cme, I don't know how to pronounce that. Sorry, Chad,Michael Jamin:He doesn't, doesn't know either.Phil Hudson:He probably's probably making it up. Was it like Ari, one of the writers in Taco, they pronounced their name. It was changed at one point.Michael Jamin:Yeah, he says his own name wrong. Poor guy.Phil Hudson:I know someone who was a Heinrich and then when World War II happened, they changed it to Heinrich, Henrik Henrich because they didn't want to be associated.Michael Jamin:Yeah, yeah.Phil Hudson:There you go. Chad asked, do you have examples of writers who have successfully experimented with story structure? What principles did they stick to and where did they deviate?Michael Jamin:I don't really know. I mean, I don't really know if I have a good answer to that. Every time I watch something I go, oh, it falls into the good. I guess there's some really high level writing. Christopher Nolan. Okay. So I would say many of his movies do not fit what I would teach, like Memento, but Forget or Inception. I don't know how many times I've watched it and I still don't understand it. So it's a great movie though.Phil Hudson:Yeah. But I would say that I can see that clearly the writing structure in those.Michael Jamin:You can. Okay.Phil Hudson:Oh yeah, you're definitely an inception too. It's like how do we get on this journey and how are we making decisions and where this stakes, all that stuff. I think it's all,Michael Jamin:A lot of it playing at the timeline, memento when he's playing with it. I don't even know what year it's supposed toPhil Hudson:Be. You're right. But I wonder if that's, it's all there and it's just been split to change and mess with your head a bit, but it's all there, which is why it resonates with people.Michael Jamin:But I guess my advice is like, listen, if you want to operate at the high level, that's great, but let's just get to the professional level first before you become the masterPhil Hudson:Level. And Christopher Nolan's a great example of that because he had made a feature before he did Memento, so he had a full feature. He was making short films all the time in film school before he even started experimenting with timelines and things like that. Yeah, okay. Listen to me just arguing. Michael jamin on his own podcast.Michael Jamin:What do I know? You might bePhil Hudson:Right, maybe my head did get big. Kevin and Steve. Alright, Marianne wants to know, you have such a great understanding of human nature. Was there something you've always been good at or did you develop it as a writer?Michael Jamin:No, I didn't. I have a very low emotional iq. My parents are great people, well, great parents, but terrible, low emotional IQs themselves just because that's the household they grew up in. And so it's not a knock on them, it's just like this is the product of your parents. This is how they communicate. And so a lot of this I learned I gained from my wife just from being with her. And then the rest of it, of course, I learned as I became, I became a writer because that's your job as a writer is to really understand people and to get into their shoes. And one of the, it's so funny, I've spoken about this in the past, but my first writing teacher was a guy who really wanted everyone to be in psychoanalysis. That's what he called it because he was so old. They don't even call it like that anymore.It's psychotherapy. But he thought every writer has to be in psychoanalysis because if you don't understand yourself, how could you possibly understand someone else and you or a character? And I think he's absolutely right. I didn't want to believe he was right, but he is right. If you don't understand yourself, and most people do not, and we know this because they go through life unconscious of the people of the damage they're leaving, of the people they're hurting because they're just not even aware of it. And you see it all the time. You could see it on social media, people saying really mean things. It's like you might even be a good person, but why would you put that in print? What is wrong with you that you would say that? What part of yourself is so wounded that you think you need to say this in writing? And so I appreciate the compliment, but everyone else, I'm a work in progress and I think writing definitely has helped me.Phil Hudson:Yeah, that's great. Albert Klein wants to know, and this is again contextual here. These are people who are live chatting questions throughout this episode or this webinar. But I said relatability is key in full caps. I think where you're talking about with the characters. Do these characters need to be relatable? Do I need to understand who they'reMichael Jamin:Yeah, and it's the same thing with Tony Soprano. How do we relate to a mobster? I don't, and he's probably a sociopath as well, but what we can relate is the fact that we know what it's like to be a boss. Maybe you know what it's like to be a boss, to have people undermining you, your underlings. And he certainly had those problems. We know what it's like to be a father and to have children that are rebellious or whatever. That's the part we relate to with, so we don't relate to the part where he's going to wax somebody because he's late with the whatever. But we do relate to this other issues, which isPhil Hudson:Anxiety, the stress and family life. His psychotic mother.Michael Jamin:And that's what the show is about. It's not aboutPhil Hudson:Crazy. He deals with his in-laws too. Joey Pants, I think is his brother-in-Law or something, right?Michael Jamin:I don't remember whatPhil Hudson:He was. Yeah. Anyway, it's all relatable because it is just a heightened version of what go through. Yeah,Michael Jamin:His job is a little more interesting than our job, but it's all, that's not what it's about. It's not about the mafia, it's about the emotions that we all relate to.Phil Hudson:Great answer. Reik vid. So do you find the anti-hero more interesting than a traditional hero?Michael Jamin:Anti-hero is not even a term I use. I don't know. I think everyone, your hero has to be likable. I don't know. I can't even say I've lost interest. If your character is so unlikable, I don't really care what happens to him or her. I am out. So this notion of anti-hero, I don't even think of your writing that way. You have a hero. I think anti-heroes is one of these terms that, I dunno, expert writers will tell you it's an anti-hero. What?Phil Hudson:Yeah, people say that. People have said that the whole time since I've said I've wanted to study screenwriting or be a writer publicly said, oh, I'll describe what I like. Oh, you like an anti-hero? Batman's an anti-hero. And I was like, why? He's not goody hoo Superman. You've described him. He is a deeply wounded person who is using every resource he has, all of his willpower to stop other people from suffering.Michael Jamin:And how is he, I mean, we were on his side. He's complicated, but we're on his side. We're rooting for him. If we're not, we got a problem.Phil Hudson:Alright. What about Walter WhiteMichael Jamin:Breaking back? Yeah. What about Walter White? So that's a great, is he an anti-hero? I don't know. Who cares? To me, he's a guy who's dying in the pilot episode. He's dying, he's a teacher, so he doesn't have any money. What is he going to leave his family when he's gone? He's got to come up with money fast. And the only way he knows how to do that fast is by capitalizing on his skillset, which is he's a chemistry teacher so he can make meth in a lab. Does that make him an anti-hero? To me, he's just a hero.Phil Hudson:He's a person. And then you find out that he gave up tremendous wealth because that was like, he had that partnership at that company where he had the ability to adjust multimillions of dollars and he's a public school chemistry teacher. So it's those layers of decisions and regret. It's exploring the human condition. Definitely justMichael Jamin:And why are we rooting for him? We're rooting for this meek man who's going to die soon to make some money for his family, but also to feel like he's alive for the first time in his life because he's just this very meek existence. And so that's why we're rooting for him. That's why we like him. And when he makes mistakes, he may go off track, but we hope he comes back. We're still rooting for him.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Great. Chad, back again. Chad, how deep should someone go in developing a film or television character knowing that the director actor in the show's evolution will shape their personality?Michael Jamin:Yeah, I mean, you should go deep enough to get their interest so that they want to buy your work or work with you. But just know that's the thing about film. The minute you sign up for a film or you sell your film, the director's in charge, they're the boss. It's their movie. They might fire you. They're going to probably hire five other writers to rewrite the hell out of you. You may not even get screen credit because that'll be arbitrated by the Writer's Guild. Which writer did the most work on it? And so you should do as much possible as work possible to entice people to get on board your project. But once they get on board, you're out. Except in tv, it's a little different tv. The writer is the boss, not the director.Phil Hudson:And the actor needs to play that role. Right? You've got to entice them with your writing. And then good for you, man, congratulations. You can cry about it and wipe your tears with a hundred dollars bills,Michael Jamin:Right? Or write something. Write a book. If you're so protective, then do it your way. Write a bookPhil Hudson:Like me.Michael Jamin:Listen, like me, a paper orchestra available @michaeljamin.com or Amazon or Barnes and Nobles or Apple Books or anywhere books are found. And now back to our show film. Excellent Commercial Break.Phil Hudson:KU Ghana. I'm so sorry. I did not get that right. How would you go about creating a character who is far removed from your life, for example, based on a myth or legend? And it seems like there's a two-parter here, so maybe addressMichael Jamin:That one. How would I go about, well, what's the second part maybe? Or is it so unrelatedPhil Hudson:And advice for generating side characters, how to get the balance right between, so,Michael Jamin:Oh, that part. I could teach in the course, the side characters, but how do I go about creating characters that are, what was the first that were mythical or something?Phil Hudson:If you have characters are so far removed from who you are, and I'm assuming this is the job or the thing they do not necessarily the difference in who they are saying myth or legendary heroes.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Well, I would say try to do some research if you're not modeling it after someone, if a psychopath get to know them and try to figure out steal from them or a family member or someone. And if you don't, then it's on you to do a lot of research. Then you're going to have to get books on people who you want to be authentic. You don't want to, that's part of your job is the research part.Phil Hudson:Yeah,Michael Jamin:I prefer to steal, I prefer to steal from people. I know.Phil Hudson:There you go. That's why all of his crazy characters are named Phil Hudson. I couldn't figure it out. But this ties back to David s goer's comment about the Man of Steel movie that he wrote and he asked, what's the theme? He's like, it's about fathers and it's like Superman has an Earth father, but he has this other father and it's literally dealing with your father relationships. And then the second one is about mothers, and it's Batman and Superman dealing with this. Both of their mothers are Martha and they're struggling. And so there's this balance even of, we all know what it's like. You can even jump to Iron Man and Civil War when they're fighting and he's fighting. He finds out this other character killed his mom and Captain America is trying to stop him. And he goes, he killed my mom. And he's like, you can't be mad at Iron Man for wanting to fight this guy who's been his ally because he killed his mom. Even if the guy doesn't remember doing it, he kills your mom. So that's all super heightened, super superhero things. But what I'm trying to get to is there's humanity in every character and your life experience mining your life for stories like Michael teaches. That's how you do that.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:Okay. Kim wants to know what about inner conflict, like being raised strictly religiously and discovering the joys of secular humanism and the transition from the medieval mindset to Renaissance?Michael Jamin:Well, you're probably a better person to answer than me.Phil Hudson:So this feels very specific to a type of story that they're writing.But when we talk about internal conflict, this is something I struggle with because as someone who's religious and been raised religious, I'm not anti-religious. I'm still very active in my faith and there are a lot of people who are very interested in what it means to be a Mormon, to be a latter day saint. I've struggled with how to approach that type of story. You've been telling me to write that for a long time, and I've struggled because I don't want to be preachy and I don't want to tear down my faith. And then I did find a balance and that balance is, let me just take a step back and look at all of the characters that I grew up with in this secular religion and what is so intriguing about the mommy blogger, the multilevel marketer, the jock has been who's now a real estate or the guy who went on to sell summer sales and has so much money but zero personality and then puts some interesting character struggling with their faith in the middle of that so you can exploreMichael Jamin:Because these are all characters that you grew up with in your faith,Phil Hudson:TheMichael Jamin:Multilevel, all of these people. Do you think Mormonism has something? Do you think there's a trait in Mormonism that applies to m multilevel marketing or something?Phil Hudson:I do, yeah. There's no better networked religion I think than the LDS faith. You, everything's divided geographically. You have 10 congregations that are geographically divided in what we call a stake. Then you have wards, which is literally a term to define a geographical area. So your neighbors all go to church with you, you do this, you know everybody, you know their name, you're encouraged to know their families and look after them and take care of them. And this is like pioneer heritage. This is a religion that was chased out of city after city, A Mormon extermination order made it legal to kill us in Missouri. And it wasn't appealed until the 1960s or seventies. They circle the wagons mentality of pilgrims or pioneers and they still treat it that way. And so present yourself nicely taken to an extreme is have perfect teeth. Go to the gym for three hours a day, wear nice clothes, live above your means, keep up with the Joneses. Really. It's like I totally see that I didn't grow up in that type of familyMichael Jamin:In that room. That's interesting to me. See, but you feel like if you were to writePhil Hudson:That you'd be caring? No, now I'm saying I know how to do that and I do know how to explore it because I'm not making fun of the religion necessarily or my theology. I am doing something that has always been interesting. It's the hypocrisy,Michael Jamin:The hypocrisy,Phil Hudson:The hypocrisy of it. And there's a lot of that. It's befriend everybody, but don't play with those kids. They don't go to church. Oh, I see. Interesting. If Jesus said we should love our neighbor as ourselves, then why are we not playing with the kid who's just moved here from South Dakota? So there's all those things. So what I would say advice is you need to look at what is interesting and what's your personal feelings about those things. And I left Utah because I didn't like necessarily the culture. It wasn't about the religion that was prominent there. It was the culture of the people, and that is something I have a lot of opinion about. So why am I not writing about that?Michael Jamin:Yeah, right. Good,Phil Hudson:Good. You'll be getting a draft within the next month or so fromMichael Jamin:Michael. Good. Send it along. You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A paper Orchestra, A collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timal. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and Kirker view says those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book and now back to our show.Phil Hudson:John wants to know, so if you choose the worst person to go on a journey, does that mean you came up with a scenario or premise or actual journey first? This goes back to in this episode or this webinar, you said it's not about finding the perfect character, it's finding the Yeah. And then I want to let people watch that webinar so they can get this thing here.Michael Jamin:Yeah. The question basically is which comes first character or the story? And to me it's the story. If most people say, oh, well I'm writing a movie about a guy, whatever comes back from the war with post-traumatic stress syndrome and now have to integrate into the real world, okay, that's the story. So now you have to go, who's the character? What's the best character for that story? Was he a seal, a navy seal or was he one of these accountant pencil pushers? He might've been a grill cook or something and I didn't sign up for this, and now he's coming back to the railroad with PTSD because the bomb went off or something. So that might be more interesting than a seal. I don't know. But you came up with a story first.Phil Hudson:Oh, can you imagine? You have legitimate PTSD and there's stories from even World War ii. It's like things are bad when the chef is loading their pistol. When the cook is loading it, they advance so far across the line that the cooking staff are now preparing to defend themselves. That's a problem. So you imagine that guy comes back and he's in a support group and he's like, yeah, I'm just struggling. And people are talking about, well, we dropped in, we night roped fast, roped in at night to get this guy and an IED went off and this guy is like, well, yeah, our position was overrun. I was like, and what did you do? I was like, I was a cook, and it diminishes your PTSD, but it shouldn't. But it's like That's fascinating.Michael Jamin:Yeah, you may go into the army because you want to become a dentist and the army will pay you to become, learn how to become a dentist, but you're not signing up to carry a pistol. You're signing up to drill teeth and somehow if you got PTSD, like you're saying, your base was overrun or a bomb went up or whatever, this is not what I signed up for and that might be interesting.Phil Hudson:Very interesting. I want to see that story. Yeah. Four eyes concepts. Can a non-human character be relatable?Michael Jamin:Can a non-human character be relatable? Well, they should be relatable. We watch the movie cars, it's about cars, but they're not, not cars. They're people who drawn to look like cars. I mean,Phil Hudson:We talked about data, data from Star Trek, right?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Everything should be, no one wants to care about a car.Phil Hudson:Wally.Michael Jamin:Wally. Exactly. All those arePhil Hudson:Short circuitMichael Jamin:Smurfs. Yeah, they're people justPhil Hudson:Drunk. Johnny five is alive, man.Michael Jamin:Yeah, so they're not cars or toys. They're people.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Awesome. So it's a craft section. Let's talk questions related to the topic and course Jim Garcia wants to know, how would you approach a true story? Someone they just got the ip, so that sounds like they've optioned it for a CIA badass who did badass things. Would you focus on areas of his life where he isn't such a badass? His complicated backstory?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah, right. To me, it's much more interesting to write about someone's weaknesses than it is to write about their strengths. And so yeah, that's exactly right. What's his problems? What are his weaknesses? That's what I would write about.Phil Hudson:Yeah. What was that movie you told me to review with Bob Odenkirk where he was like, oh,Michael Jamin:What was it called again? I likedPhil Hudson:It. I can see the poster getting punched. Yeah, it'll come to me in a second. But that was an example of someone who just seems like a normal regular paper pusher and then you find out he's got this rich backstory, but it's him struggling to get back there. He's not good at it at first. He's like getting his butt kicked.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I like that movie.Phil Hudson:Yeah. The name will come to me in a second. TJ wants to know when does a scene end or when should you end a scene is probably a better question.Michael Jamin:I teach this in a course in bit greater detail, but the scene ends when the character's attitude is no longer the same as it was at the beginning of the scene. And that's when the scene is over. When the character, so for example, well, I got to think now, I won't put it on the spot. I can't think of a, but it is basically a character will get some piece of information and they go, oh, I got to go apologize to her. Or, oh, that does it. I got to rob a bank. It's like now their attitude has shifted. It's slightly different. It was in the beginning, and this is a mistake that most new writers make, is like the scenes continues long after the character. They're continuing to write, even though the scene ended 10 minutes ago. So when the character's attitude is different, has shifted, you're seen is over.Phil Hudson:Yeah. That's great. Refi wants to know, is story structure pretty much the same worldwide with the exception of cultural differences?Michael Jamin:I believe so. What differences difference does the language make? And to be honest, I am interested in stories from other cultures because look, we all have love. Love doesn't change from culture to culture. This culture, you may have a range marriage and this culture, you don't have a range marriage and this culture, a marriage ceremony might look different than this culture's marriage ceremony, but love is love and so you're just writing about the same thing. And I appreciate the window into your world because you have a different culture, but we're all humans. We all share the same human emotions, and so that's where people get hung up. It's like, no. Yeah, it's the same. We're all the same.Phil Hudson:Yeah. I met this kid here who's from Iran here in Los Angeles, and we were chatting and I had the opportunity in film school and at Sundance to catch several Iranian films by this Iranian filmmaker and a couple of his cohorts, and he was so impressed by that because I was able to talk about the story structure of these films. And what's interesting is how they have to navigate the politics of a government that funds everything, but also censors everything and how you have to use show, don't tell, and speaking indirectly to get across your message that kind of is political and anti-government, but have the government fund it and think you're doing good work for them. The other, but it's story is what connects and carries through. And the other great film everyone should check out from 2013 is called The Lunchbox, and it's this beautiful film I saw at Sundance and it ties in culture so beautifully to how we approach story. I would absolutely check that one out. David wants to know how can you add to the skeleton of a good character if you have the basis for a compelling character story, but you feel you need to add more to make your character real?Michael Jamin:Yeah. One of the things I have in the course is a whole worksheet. It's a chart that you need to GamePhil Hudson:Changer.Michael Jamin:Yeah. It's a chart so that you have to fill out a bunch of questions that you have to ask yourself about this character and filling out this chart will really help you flesh out your character in a way you couldn't even imagine. And then there's other characters in this chart, and then you have to say, okay, how does this characteristic, Matt? How do these characters interact? That's another question. And so all of that, if you're really interested, go sign up for my course@michaeljamin.com/course.Phil Hudson:Yeah. You quickly learn that you're painting all of your characters to be mirrors of each other because you want to talk about that thing, and then it highlights how you can make all of those interactions more beautiful and more interesting, more conflict to just really improve your story. You got that from somebody. Do you want to say who you got that from?Michael Jamin:Yeah, I learned that from Steve Levitan who I worked under. Just shoot me. So much of the knowledge that I teach in this course is just from sitting at the feet of writers who are more experienced than I was.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Do you have your notebook? I don't know if you want to show to peopleMichael Jamin:Every once in a while we take this down,Phil Hudson:So this is something we bring up in the webinars, often even give away a free PDF based on this notebook called the insider's guide to terminology, but that's your notes in your career writing, just writing stuff down from conversations, right?Michael Jamin:Yeah, exactly. I would work with other writers and they'd say something smart and I jot into my notebook, and then when I made the course a couple years ago, I just referred to my notebook. I go, this is what I want to teach.Phil Hudson:Yeah, it's awesome. This is Christina in our course, and this isn't really a question, but Kevin, who prepped this for me, left it in says in Michael's course, I learned how to figure out once and for all those act breaks that were a real headache for me before story structure is so well explained. It becomes much easier after. Yeah. She'sMichael Jamin:Had a good lot of success. Christina,Phil Hudson:She doing well. I was about to say she's taken her life mind for all these rich stories, and she's written, I think books and then now plays and those plays are being performed and touring. SoMichael Jamin:NotPhil Hudson:Bad. She credits you for helping her figure out how to break the story, but you didn't tell her what life to live and her experience or how to paint the story. You said this is how you tell your story, and she did that.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Good for her.Phil Hudson:Awesome. We have one question on breaking in. This is from new legend pictures. I've been wondering about writing for a foreign audience. For example, I'd like to write something in the vein of Korean dramas. I know there's probably no way to break it into the US market.Michael Jamin:Writing a Korean drama.Phil Hudson:Yeah, just writing for other things, specifically a Korean drama.Michael Jamin:Well, are they Korean or are they American? IPhil Hudson:Sounds immediate. It's because this is a foreign audience. Sounds to me like this is someone who really enjoys Korean dramas and wants to take a stab at writing one.Michael Jamin:Oh, I see. I don't know anything about KoreanPhil Hudson:Drama. I think you were just saying, is that worth doing to try to break in? Is that a good sample?Michael Jamin:I would assume if that's your culture and you can write something, like I said, you can write a story that it could be, I could have a window into your culture. That's interesting to me to see what that's about, but at the end of the day, you still experience love the way I do. It's the same. Sure. If that's your culture, right, and you understand the Korean culture better than because you're Korean. Yeah. Lean into it.Phil Hudson:Lean into it. What if you're not Korean and you just like ca dramas,Michael Jamin:Then you're in dangerous territory. Someone might say, what do you know you're talking about? Or people might have a problem with you. I don't want to debate whether it's right or wrong, but you make run into trouble with that.Phil Hudson:Yeah. I would think that if you want to just write it to get it out of your system and it helps you improve your craft, great. But be tread lightly. Right. Next. Do most shows have, this is the same person, do most shows have each episode have their own full story arc? Or is it the whole season or the series or both?Michael Jamin:Well, every episode has to have a complete story, and then you may have a longer a story arc. This character is going back to college for the first time, but that one episode has to feel fulfilling. It has to feel like, yeah. Okay. And that there has to be a story in that episode. If it's not a complete story, people are going to be bored by it. And then the next episode, you're taking that journey a little further, but this is a question whether you want to serialize or your project or not. But again, you don't need to worry about any of this. You need to write one complete compelling episode of television. You don't need to worry about seasons, episodes two through 10. Just give me one damn good episode. Give me the pilot. That's all I need.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Ruth

On this week's episode, I have Writer/Executive Producer, Jonathan Collier (Bones, The Simpsons, King of the Hill, Monk, and many many more) and we dive into the origins of his career. We also talk about his side hustle and how that came about! Tune in as we have so much more.Show NotesJonathan Collier on X: https://twitter.com/collierjonathan Jonathan Collier IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0171927/Jonathan Collier on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_CollierA Paper Orchestra on Website: - https://michaeljamin.com/bookA Paper Orchestra on Audible: - https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: - https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestraFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptJonathan Collier:It was after season eight, and I thought they were trying to get me to go to King of the Hill, and I had whatever, I had the chance to stay at Simpson's. And I thought, well, there's no way it goes past season 10.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Or any show goes past season 10.Jonathan Collier:It just doesn't happen. And so I left. I thought, I kind of felt badly leaving, but I thought, what's much better? Do you want to show with some like in itMichael Jamin:You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase. And to support me in this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show.All right, everyone, welcome back to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? My next guest is an old colleague of mine, old friend from my days on King of the Hill before I let him talk his name's John Coly or welcome to the show, but let me tell you what he's done. The Sky's credits are pretty incredible. So you sit back and relax. Lemme tell you what he's done. So he wrote on The Simpsons. Okay, we've heard of that show and I'm only giving some of the highlights, some of the highlights, some Scooby dos, which I did not know. King of the Hill Monk, the Good Family Bones, the Good Cop Law and Order. I mean, this guy has done well. He's done a lot. But thank you so much, man, for doing the show.Jonathan Collier:Oh, it's a pleasure, Michael. Thank you for having me.Michael Jamin:Let me tell you about who you are because I remember very clearly walking to my, on my way to my office on King of the Hill. Yours was, I would always walk past you and I would often stop and say hello. Or sometimes I would just sit and you always had a big smile. You're always so happy to greet me and have me there. And I never felt like I was getting in the way you Yeah, come on in. Come on. You're always very kind.Jonathan Collier:I am endlessly in search of distractions.Michael Jamin:Well, I do remember walking past you on days when you're on script and just looking miserable. IJonathan Collier:Am. Thank you. Nope, that's exactly it. Well observed. I am never more miserable than I am alone in writing.Michael Jamin:But why is that? Do you feel?Jonathan Collier:Oh, it's a horrible thing to do. TV writing is one of the most fun, engaging, productive things you can do if you're with other people. And I love that part of it. And the small portion of the job that relies on you being alone entails, I should say, you being alone and actually writing something without people around is misery for me.Michael Jamin:But is it the comedy part? You also do drama now? Which one is harder?Jonathan Collier:Comedy is harder.Michael Jamin:Okay. But yeah, I would agree with that as well. But is it miserable to write drama as well?Jonathan Collier:I find the process of keeping stuff alive and interesting and propulsive is really, really hard.Michael Jamin:And how do know? You know when it's alive?Jonathan Collier:What, sorry?Michael Jamin:How do you know?Jonathan Collier:How do I know when it's right?Michael Jamin:Yeah. How do you know?Jonathan Collier:Part of what makes it so miserable is you can always second guess yourself. And even more so when there's jokes involved.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Well, for jokes for sure. And what was that transition like for you? I'm amazed that anyone can do it.Jonathan Collier:Oh, I got very lucky. What happened was that King of the Hill was, we got canceled. You remember? It was time. The show got canceled. It was canceled two times.Michael Jamin:We left after the first time.Jonathan Collier:Yeah, left. So it got canceled. And I really realized it was for real when they started moving our furniture out of the officeMichael Jamin:Because you were going to squat there.Jonathan Collier:I had every intention of squatting.Michael Jamin:You thought it was all Big bluff until they moved at the furniture.Jonathan Collier:And so that was happening. And I had done comedy for about 17 years at that point. And I didn't love doing for camera comedy. I liked doing animation and there were no real single camera comics, comedies on the air at the time, and I didn't quite know what to do, but I knew I stopped watching comedies. I kind of could feel the sweat on them and the work on them because I worked in so many comedy rooms. And I got really lucky, which is that Andy Breckman, who was running Monk at the time, who created the show, he used to have three guest writers come in every season. And he did that because he felt like he kept him on track. If you came in as a guest to the room in New York, it made him concentrate and work harder and make sure that in five days you would break a story.Michael Jamin:Why? Because people flew in, you mean?Jonathan Collier:Yeah, because the network would fly, the studio would fly you into New York and put you up and they would only keep you there for five days.Michael Jamin:Okay, that's interesting.Jonathan Collier:I got one of those. So I got one of those guest shots. And the other thing I got way I got lucky wasMichael Jamin:Wait, but how did you get that guest shot?Jonathan Collier:I got that guest shot because this is embarrassing. My agent at the time who I didn't think was doing enough for me, got me a meeting with Andy Breckman, and I thought it was just one meeting with Andy Breckman, who's a great guy, and I love the show, but who knows if it's going to turn into anything. I fired my agent, moved on to another agent, and then Andy called me up and said, oh, we want you to do this episode a month.Michael Jamin:Right.Jonathan Collier:But there was no,Michael Jamin:But I've already fired my agent.Jonathan Collier:That was done. What happened was that, anyway, Andy used to only hire comedy writers to do guest episodes.Michael Jamin:Why?Jonathan Collier:Because his theory was that he could teach a comedy writer how to write a procedural. He could not teach a procedural writer how to be fun. So anyway, they flew into New York, I was in the room, we broke a story and I wrote it and it went well. The whole thing went well, and I got very lucky again because no one had ever really left the show or been added to it. This was the fourth season and one writer was leaving and Andy offered me the job. So I came in and went on staff the next season.Michael Jamin:How many seasons did you do there?Jonathan Collier:I did two more seasons and then the writer's strike of 2007 happened. And when that happened, I didn't know how long that would go on. Mike and the Good Family was starting up and they got what was called a strike waiver, and there were certain production companies and one was MRC, media Rights Capital, and they made a deal with the WGA, with the Writers Guild that they could do shows that were during the strike and it would not be strike breaking to work on those shows if they agreed to abide by the Wgas terms, the writer's terms. The WGA was using that as a tactic to try to force the studios to,Michael Jamin:And it's funny, they didn't really do that this last strike.Jonathan Collier:No, I don't think it really helped.Michael Jamin:You don't think it helped?Jonathan Collier:I don't know if it did or actually, no, I can't say if it did or not. I thought all I can say is I think this last strike was better run than the first one. I think a lot was learned from the first one. Anyway, I left Monk because I got a job right away rather than being strike.Michael Jamin:Right. Let me ask you that. When you're on Monk and you are with procedural writers who are not comedy writers, when they would pitch something that you and I would call a clam, or if you would pitch it in the room at the Simpson, the King of the Hill, someone would say, right? Was there a lot of that going on? Were you the guy who said, yeah, that's not really a joke?Jonathan Collier:Well, no. At Mon though, you had, first of all, it was comedy writers. It was a small staff and it was four people whose background was comedy, including Andy Breckman, and then one High Conrad, who was just a terrific mystery writer. And he had written something like 200 mystery books. Oh,Michael Jamin:Wow.Jonathan Collier:And the way he got on was that Andy met with him and took him out for lunch and said, look, I love your mystery books, and you have two choices. One is you come on staff or two was I'm just going to steal all your plots anyway.Michael Jamin:Oh wow.Jonathan Collier:Hi was on whatever came on staff, and he was on UNK for the whole run. And then he was on The Good Cop with Me Too. It was on, that was another Andy Breckman show.Michael Jamin:Right. It's so interesting. And to what did you think of that world? I mean, compared to comedy?Jonathan Collier:Well, it was a really kind of easy, delicate transition because it was a mystery show once again, written by comedy writers.Michael Jamin:Writers. It was light. It was fun.Jonathan Collier:Yeah. A procedural written by non-com writers would've been a tougher adjustment for me.Michael Jamin:But even the procedural explain to me and everyone else, how do you write a procedural?Jonathan Collier:I think there's many different ways to write a procedural. The way I write a procedural is what really happened comes first.Michael Jamin:What really happens comes first. What does that mean?Jonathan Collier:Okay. What you have to think of is what was our crime? What's the procedure about? What are we investigating?Michael Jamin:Okay, so give me an example.Jonathan Collier:It's not a medical procedural. This is a criminal procedural. I'm talkingMichael Jamin:About, okay, so someone's dead,Jonathan Collier:Someone is dead. And then you have all sorts of questions you can ask that can form the basis for an episode. You can say, oh, is it an accident? Is it a suicide? Is it a murder? If it is a murder, or who did it? Why did they do it? Who could have done it? There any number of, is it an open book where the audience knows what happened? Is it a closed book where the audience doesn't know and learns along with our investigators?Michael Jamin:Did you basically do both?Jonathan Collier:Monk did both opened and closed book. And Monk also did a combination of who done, its who was the killer, why done, its, we know who the killer is, but why on earth would they kill someone? And that's how we can prove they did it. And how done its, it's an incredibly, it's a locked room mystery, for instance, where someone was killed inside the locked room, how did the killer get in there and doMichael Jamin:It? Interesting. HadJonathan Collier:To figure out how the crime was done.Michael Jamin:And so these words are so funny. So as you were breaking the story, you'd break 'em in the room with all the writers, I assume, right? And then throw out ideas, and then someone would say, okay, but let's do this, make it a wide, let's make it a wide done at this week. Is that what it is?Jonathan Collier:Well, I think we'd look at the killing and say, what's a really, really ingenious killing? We could do?Michael Jamin:Okay.Jonathan Collier:Say, okay, let's look at the motive. And then we'd say, last, you'd spend probably say you were breaking a story over the course. If it was just us, we probably spent seven to eight days breaking a story. We weren't having a guest writer in. And the first three or four days probably spent just figuring out how the crime was done and why really gettingMichael Jamin:It seems very hard to me. This seems very hard to me.Jonathan Collier:For me, it was somewhat natural way to do it because it was really fun. And for some, I feel like I was using my comedy muscles, even my plotting muscles to figure out why you did it. And then you work backwards once, and this is just us. Other shows do it different ways. There's probably a million different ways to do it.Michael Jamin:Okay. But you start work backwards. So first you decide if it's going to be a who, what or why is that what it's,Jonathan Collier:First of all, first of all, you can't figure out who kills who and why, who killed who, who kills who. How do they do it, why do they do it, where do they do it? All those things. Then you figure out how do we solve it? And for a show like Monk, he'd also say, well, I have someone who has OCD. I have someone who was painfully shy as someone who was any number of traumas in his life. Also a comic character who happens to be the saddest person on television, and he has a tragedy to his life. And what's the world I can put him in to make him the most uncomfortable?Michael Jamin:Right? And that's how you begin. That's where you start. That'sJonathan Collier:Often where, that's often where the fun of it comes from. The comedy is from seeing him in the world where he's uncomfortable, because comedy is all about discomfort. The emotional story would often come from how he will relate to the world and what it would bring up in his own life. And then the procedural story is how you solve the crime.Michael Jamin:YouJonathan Collier:Go ahead. Sorry.Michael Jamin:No, no, go ahead.Jonathan Collier:The way one could look at it is for us on that show, the procedural story was almost with the armature. It's what you would call the plot, I guess. And the real story was the emotional story that was threaded through the plot.Michael Jamin:Right, of course.Jonathan Collier:And the two of them dovetail and one comment on the other, like a musical comedy, for instance, where songs are the twists, they provide the transition points in the story. You could say the emotional twists or the procedural twists would provide a transition point for each other.Michael Jamin:It still sounds very hard to me. Does it get easier?Jonathan Collier:Well, I think it probably sounds hard because I'm probably overcomplicating it.Michael Jamin:Well, not really, because you're solving, because see, and I are thinking of writing a procedural, and so we're watching some, and I'm like, I don't know. I don't think I know how to do this.Jonathan Collier:Oh, I'll help you with it.Michael Jamin:Oh, good. You're hired.Jonathan Collier:It is not that hard because it's actually easier I found than writing an episode of King of a Hill where someone buys a new hat and it changes their life and life. You have to make a whole story out of that.Michael Jamin:Right. But you still have to figure out, it's a mystery. You're solving a crime and you have to make it so it's smart. I mean, I've watched other ones where they throw in a clue just when you need it, oh good, I dug a new clue so I can figure out another scene.Jonathan Collier:And there's shows that do that. And there's shows that I like, if you don't get a show like Merab Town,Michael Jamin:Right? I haven'tJonathan Collier:Seen it. Okay. That's real lies procedural. And what you realize is it is not about solving the crime. I mean, it's all the crime, but it is really about the emotional drama that's happening. And the crime is, once again, is almost the backdropMichael Jamin:For it. But to me, that's what makes it so that's why I want to get rid of the crime. Can we just focus on the relationship between the mother and the daughter that I get?Jonathan Collier:And the one I thought does comment on the other, and they're both of us family, and I felt like that show worked pretty well. It's very much not a show that I would know how to do.Michael Jamin:Well, and that takes me to law and your latest, but Okay, bones, and let's talk about what you're doing now. That's very different. Law and order.Jonathan Collier:Well, I'm not doing Law and Order now. I stopped after last season.Michael Jamin:Oh, you did? Okay. But that must be very procedural. I mean, procedural.Jonathan Collier:Procedural, very procedural, very different beast. I mean, it was a challenge to figure it out, but I think I'm much more comfortable in this space where there's more character involved.Michael Jamin:Yeah, right. I would thinkJonathan Collier:The part I like best is where I've been most comfortable and enjoyed the most is character driven procedurals.Michael Jamin:Right. Which is kind of like what USA does, right?Jonathan Collier:Well, back when they existed,Michael Jamin:Back when they were doing it.Jonathan Collier:So no, in other shows, there's been a lot of character-based procedurals on TV over the years, and that's what Bones was. Keone was a character-based procedural.Michael Jamin:And you were the showrunner that you were the executive producer?Jonathan Collier:I was the showrunner for a while, yes.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And that was the first time. Was that the first time you ran a show or no?Jonathan Collier:No. I've run another show on the CW called As IfMichael Jamin:Before. Oh. But this is the, I still would imagine now that you're the boss of a procedural, I don't know. I need help. So it seems so hard to me. Wellm hung up on that.Jonathan Collier:I took over a show that was already working veryMichael Jamin:Well.Jonathan Collier:Har Hansen, who created, it was a hundred yards away on the Fox lot in his office. I could always go running to him for help if I neededMichael Jamin:It. Right. And you had the same staff,Jonathan Collier:Sorry.Michael Jamin:And you had the staff, the previous same staff.Jonathan Collier:We had much of the same staff. And I had a co-Ho Runner, Michael Peterson, who was terrific. And I had Steven Nathan, who I took over the show from and only left because I was still a very close friend, and I could call him up whenever I needed to.Michael Jamin:Yeah,Jonathan Collier:I think starting from scratch is always much harder, or walking into a situation not immediately comfortable is always much harder too.Michael Jamin:But now that you've, I see this as opening a lot of doors for you. Has it? Because now you have two genres under your belt.Jonathan Collier:Yes and no. It's always hard. I mean, you have to always be out there in whatever writing. And there's a limited number of jobs that a lot of people want to do, and the people who want to do those jobs tend to be, when you think of it, just in terms of being practical, it's a great profession when you're doing it. But it's one of the stupidest professions to try to do because your competition is really smart, really talented, really talented, really inspired, really wants to do it and works really hard. There's a lot of businesses that aren't like thatMichael Jamin:You are listening to. What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, A collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timbral. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and Kirks Review says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book. Go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book. And now back to our show.How do you know, were you in a lot of businesses?Jonathan Collier:I have a side business.Michael Jamin:What is your side business? Is it you rent folding shows for parties?Jonathan Collier:Well, no. I actually do multifamily housing.Michael Jamin:Wait. Oh, I knew about this. Right.Jonathan Collier:And believe me, my competition in multifamily housing will be damned if they want to spend 80 bucks to fix the toilet the right way.Michael Jamin:Now, do you build or you refurbish? What does that mean?Jonathan Collier:I do it with a partner who's also a writer, and we refurbish and build and rent.Michael Jamin:And Is it in LA or all over the country?Jonathan Collier:It's in Los Angeles.Michael Jamin:This is amazing. I remember, but I don't know. That's a whole different skillset. Who told you you were qualified to do that?Jonathan Collier:I think we always revert back to who we are,Michael Jamin:Which was, you were always a real estate mogul in the beginning.Jonathan Collier:Oh, I'm not a mogul by any means. We're mom and pop level of multifamily housing, but whatever. My family had small family businesses probably going back to the Middle Ages and they were butchers and bakers and ran a little in, did all those things. And that's where I immediately felt comfortable doing this.Michael Jamin:Really. Was it your idea to get into, how did that idea come up?Jonathan Collier:That came up during the 2007 strike also?Michael Jamin:Yeah, everything comes up during the strike when you're out of work.Jonathan Collier:So you're out of work, you're walking around with a picket sign. Yeah. I was thinking, wait a second. I'm walking around with a picket sign with a lot of angry, middle-aged guys. We're all mad at their fathers and taking it out in the studio.Michael Jamin:Okay,Jonathan Collier:We are at the mercy. We're putting yourself in a position where we're walking around with a sign waiting for a giant multinational corporation to pay us a lot of money to do something that we frankly love to do. And I'm not really in control of my faith here.Michael Jamin:No, we're not.Jonathan Collier:And so that's where my partner and I decided to do it. And then fortunately for us, I know what happened. I talked about it and I started talking about it with one of my daughter's, babysitters.Michael Jamin:How many babysitters does she have?Jonathan Collier:We had a hundred babysitters, a hundred best babysitters in all of LosMichael Jamin:Angeles. She required a lot of babysitters. Okay,Jonathan Collier:Whatever. When we go out, we'd have whatever, five people we call, whatever. And I've all come over at once. This woman was actually getting, I talked to her about it because while she was babysitting for us, she was getting her real estate license.Michael Jamin:Okay. Wow.Jonathan Collier:And so she called me up and said, I have a building for you, and it is a really good deal, and Washington Mutual Bank is trying to unload it really fast. This is now 2008 or so, and the whole real estate market's falling apart.Michael Jamin:And how many units is this building approximately?Jonathan Collier:This building has five units.Michael Jamin:Okay. So it's small. WeJonathan Collier:Did not know what we were doing, but we went and looked at it. We bought it.Michael Jamin:Okay. We had to make a company first. You had to do all the legal stuff.Jonathan Collier:Yeah. We formed what's called an LLC. We talked to a lawyer who was a cousin of someone, and they told us what to do.Michael Jamin:Real estate. As it turned out, a brilliant idea. It was probably the best idea you've ever had in la.Jonathan Collier:It was a very, very lucky time to do it. And so people, I found once again, like I was saying earlier, my competition in real estate was not as talented or hardworking or smart as my competition in television writing, but they were a lot luckier. And just by the strange confluence of events where interest rates went down and the economy started to pick up eventually, we all just by good fortune, by luck, it worked out well. It worked. Yeah.Michael Jamin:This is important because as you mentioned, nothing is guaranteed as a writer, nothing is guaranteed. And so to have something on the side is really helpful. Gives you some breathing. I highlyJonathan Collier:Recommend to people. I always tell whatever, when I talk to actors, I'm always thrilled when I hear that they're writing, even though they tend to be very good writers, and I don't like that. Or when they're doing something, when they're going to law school, when they're doing anything else, it's just nice to have a backup. It helps you sleep better at night.Michael Jamin:It does. Yeah, it really does. What's that?Jonathan Collier:You have your podcast.Michael Jamin:This is my empire, as you see. There youJonathan Collier:Go.Michael Jamin:Yeah. My media empire. Now, you wrote an episode of King of the Hill, because when I talk about King of the Hill, and this is 20 years ago, we were doing it. One episode people often bring up to me is Bobby is the Pygmalion episode, which you wrote.Jonathan Collier:Oh,Michael Jamin:People want to know about that. And we were just joining the show at that time. I'mJonathan Collier:Glad to hear that. I still think about that episode actually, when I said, I hate writing alone. I don't hate all of writing alone. I love the last two or three days of writing alone, punching up. I feel like face with a blank page. And once I've kind of taken a sledgehammer and beaten that script into shape, actually turning it from serviceable to good is actually fun. That part of it. And I remember the last three days or so on that script were really fun.Michael Jamin:But how did it, I mean, that was a departure. I mean, everyone there said, this is the departure. This is the episode, which ended in a really dark place.Jonathan Collier:It was a gothic thriller.Michael Jamin:How did you sell it to Greg? To the staff? I dunno if he was running the show then How did you sell? It was there. It was a departure.Jonathan Collier:Greg was there, so Greg was still there. I don't know if he was officially running the show, but he was there. Greg had to approve everything. He was basically, and Greg, God bless him. Not only did he embrace the gothic nature of it, but he pushed it even more. And some of the really strong gothic elements like killing.Michael Jamin:Yeah. The guy died at the endJonathan Collier:Who loved. I think that may have been Greg's idea.Michael Jamin:Was there a moment though, when you go, wait a minute. Are you sure that this doesn't seem like the tone of the show? I mean, it's mostly Hank watering his lawn.Jonathan Collier:Oh, no. Once we were going to do it, I was off full speed ahead. I wanted to embrace it also. Now, there were other people there at the time. It was a big staff and whatever. Everyone had valid opinions or people who did not embrace it the way that they were entitled to that. But I think we pretty much got the episode we wanted up on the screen forMichael Jamin:Sure, man. I mean, that got some big, I remember watching the Color in the animation. We watched the color in the Room. That's a big, it was like, whoa.Jonathan Collier:Yeah. There were very large twists and turns. Yeah. It is always really fun to push a genre.Michael Jamin:It isJonathan Collier:Carefully, closely observed family comedy and turned it into a large scale gothic drill.Michael Jamin:I had a conversation with Dave Krinsky. He ran the show at one point that, and the funny thing is, because people on social media, they're still watching King of the Hill. I haven't watched it since we were on it, because that's it. You leave it alone, you're onto the next show, and people really remember it. They remember it. They want to talk about it. And I'm like, I'm sorry. I don't really remember this episode. And Krinsky felt the same way, and he ran it. It's like, I don't really remember this. Do you remember everything? Oh, no. No. It's interesting that I think people have this expectation of the writers that we should still be living in it and we can't because we have to move on to whatever else we're writing.Jonathan Collier:Yeah. No, you only have so much room in yourMichael Jamin:Head. Yeah.Jonathan Collier:I mean, part of it is we're too busy hanging on every grudge and slight and moment of shame in our lives to use in our comedy.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Well, okay, so I know you don't have too much time, but what do you writing? What do you want to write next? Do you want to write procedural comedy? What do you want to do? IJonathan Collier:Really like the procedural space. I'm working on a procedural right now with a terrific writer who I was on bones withMichael Jamin:To sell as a pitch.Jonathan Collier:Yeah,Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. Well, that makes sense. I mean, and given your track record, I would assume it'd probably be easier for you to sell a procedural. I don't know. There, no,Jonathan Collier:I have no idea. We are in an odd market, so we'll see.Michael Jamin:What do you know about the market? I hear just from talking to other writers, I don't think anybody really know. What do you know about the market?Jonathan Collier:Oh, nothing. I know what I read in the trades. I know what I read in Deadline Hollywood.Michael Jamin:And by that you mean what's getting picked up?Jonathan Collier:Yeah, I know what everyone else knows. I have no information. I do know anecdotally, my friends at least have had trouble selling things.Michael Jamin:They're having trouble selling right now. That's what I'm telling them, because they don't know how much money they have. Yeah.Jonathan Collier:It is an inflection point in the business, and there's been periodic inflection points, whatever, where it's pointed in one direction or another, but no one really knows what they mean while you're in them.Michael Jamin:Yeah, yeah. It's so, so smart about real estate. I'm still hung up on that, and I know this is not a podcast about that, but in a way it is. It's a podcast about having your fingers in many whatever it is, pots or something. Pies. What is it? I don't know what the expression is.Jonathan Collier:It is generally pies.Michael Jamin:Is it? What about a pot pie, like a chicken pot pie? It's generally pies, you said, man. So, okay. So that's kind of what you're taking out there is you're working on, and how often do you meet and do you work on it?Jonathan Collier:Oh, we meet every day really? More or less every day. I like to work for about three or four hoursMichael Jamin:In person. You meet?Jonathan Collier:No, we work on Zoom. And I don't like Zoom rooms, and I've been in some of those, but I like working with just one writer on Zoom, if you know them Well, it's fun. I mean, I found that in a regular room, and I'm sure people have told you this on your podcast and otherwise that, especially when you're No anything character based, any show, if it is not character based, the fun of it really is. And a lot of the creativity comes from what's not going on in the room. It comes from walking to lunch. It comes from Brow Cup coffee. It comes from killing time doing something else on the lot or your office. And that's when the ideas kind of come out of you. And you don't get that on Zoom.Michael Jamin:No, you don't. I wonder. Yeah. So was never Back. The rooms never got back. The last show I was on, it was still Zoom. Have you gone back in person?Jonathan Collier:No.Michael Jamin:No. Isn't that weird?Jonathan Collier:Really? I mean, I helped out, I did some punch up on a movie, and that was in person and on some punch up on an HBO series. Really? That didn't go, but that was whatever, a mini room. And those were both in person, but they were small and they were limited duration. So like a full functioning show in person. I have not done since theMichael Jamin:Pandemic. I wonder. Yeah, I wonder. They're just trying to save money. I don't think they're about saving lives. I think it's about saving money.Jonathan Collier:I think they're saving money. I think that sometimes one thing they found during Zoom is you get to writers in different cities. And so if you have writers in different cities to even the playing field, whatever, everyone's on Zoom rather than someone being in New York and someone being in Seattle and someone being in Los Angeles. But I certainly enjoy and benefit from the physical presence of other writers. It's hard enough to do it much easier and more fun when you're with other people.Michael Jamin:For me,Jonathan Collier:I have worked with writers who love being alone doing it. They have an entirely different experience and approach to it.Michael Jamin:Well, a lot of it's about the commute to work. You're probably central.Jonathan Collier:I'm fairly central, but I know people who actually, they don't want to be in a room. I've worked with wonderful writers who would much prefer to be alone and knock it out.Michael Jamin:Do you like going, working on set? Do you like being on set?Jonathan Collier:Yeah, I do. I mean, I think it depends. Every set has its own character politics, and it's not particularly fun being on set if you have a difficult lead or whatever, if there's something going on there or if there's tension between the stars or if there's, there's any number of ways you can have tension on the set. By and large, I've been very lucky. They've been good sets, and it's been fun. And also, it's the last step and whatever. One thing you realize on the set is when you spend significant time on the set, you realize how many people are really offering the show that you may have ridden,Michael Jamin:That you may have, I'm sorry, what?Jonathan Collier:Your name is on a script, but everyone on that set, hair and makeup, your whatever, your director, everyone has your camera operators. They're all helping create that show.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Jonathan Collier:Writers in their

On this week's episode, I have actress Paula Marshall (Euphoria, Walker, Gary Unmarried, and many many more) and we dive into the origins of his career. We also talk about how she dealt with being a new mom and working on a sitcom at the same time. There is so much more so make sure you tune in.Show NotesPaula Marshall on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thepaulamarshall/?hl=enPaula Marshall IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0005191/Paula Marshall on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_MarshallA Paper Orchestra on Website - https://michaeljamin.com/bookA Paper Orchestra on Audible - https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1A Paper Orchestra on Amazon - https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestraFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptPaula Marshall:But a lot of parents, they go to jobs and then they come home or they don't work at all, and then it's just mom 100% and they're probably exhausted and happy. Some of my friends, I feel like they're like, I'm so glad. Finally I get to whatever. And either they're retiring and they get to go travel and like, no, I'm an actor. I'm looking for a gig, whatever. I don't think actors ever truly retire. I think we don't. I don't.Michael Jamin:You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations and writing, art and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase. And to support me on this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show.Welcome everyone. My next guest is actress Paula Marshall. She has been, I worked with her years ago on a show called Out of Practice, I think it was like 2005. But Paul, before I let you get a word in edgewise, I got to tell everyone, your credits are crazy long, so your intro may take a long time. So I'm going to just give you some of the highlights to remind you of your incredible body of work here. Really these are just the highlights. She works a ton. So well, let's see. I guess we could start with One Life To Live. That might've been your first one. Grapevine Life goes on. Wonder Years Seinfeld. I heard of that one. Perry Mason diagnosis. Murder Wild Oats. I'm skipping here. Nash Bridges. You did a couple Chicago Suns Spin. City Cupid Snoops Sports Night, the Weber Show. It doesn't end.Just shoot Me, which I worked on. I didn't even know you were on that. Maybe I wasn't there. Hitting Hills and Out of Practice, which we did together. Veronica Mars, nip Tuck, shark ca Fornication. You did a bunch of Gary Unmarried House friends with Benefits, the exes CSI, the Mentalist, two and a Half Men Murder in the First Major Crimes. What else have we got here? Goer Gibbons, I dunno what that is. You have to tell me what that is. And then Modern Family Euphoria. You did a bunch of them. Walker. Paula, I'm exhausted and I'm going to steal your joke here. You can because I'm going to say you're Paula Marshall, but you may know me as Carla Gina. That's what used to tell me CarlaPaula Marshall:And I know Carla,Michael Jamin:But knowPaula Marshall:She's like the younger version of me. Slightly shorter,Michael Jamin:Bigger, bigger. Boop. But you have done so much. I'm going to jump, I'm going to jump into the hardest part. I'm wondering if this is the hardest part for you is being a guest star on a show because you have to jump in with the cast, you have to know the rules and everything. Is that harder?Paula Marshall:Yes, a hundred percent. It's harder when I guest star on any shows, if I haven't seen the show, I watch three or four on YouTube just so I know who's who and the vibe and the energy. When I guest star on Modern Family I their last season and some could say I canceled the show by being there. I've been called a show killerMichael Jamin:Before. I remember You don't let Right.Paula Marshall:I still have not let that go. I like to say I've just worked on so many different shows at its peak and then it died anyway. It's hard because they're all in a flow and depending on the other actors, how cool they are to kind of throw the ball at you.Michael Jamin:But do you have to identify who's the alpha dog on set? Is that what your plan is? It'sPaula Marshall:Pretty clear right away. Really? Yeah. I mean besides whoever's first on the call sheet, I remember one of the producers of Snoop's, David Kelly's first big bomb. That was me.Michael Jamin:It was a sure thing what happened?Paula Marshall:You know what? I'm not sure. Well, when it was supposed to be a comedy quickly turned into a drama, it was not great. But as one of the producers of Snoop said, you don't fuck with the first person on the call sheet. You don't fuck with him. And so you identify that person and depending, it's funny because I've worked with so many great people and so many assholes too. Like David Deney. Damn, is he cool? He's so nice. When I worked on fornication with him, he set a tone for just the set, the crew, the actors, this freedom just to try things. And I remember during my, it was like the first day naked throwing up,Michael Jamin:Wait, were you nervous? Why were you throwing up?Paula Marshall:Hello? Of course. But IMichael Jamin:Remember you're never nervous, Paul, let me tell you who you were. I'm totally nervous. No, you're the most self-assured person probably I've ever worked with. You're very confident.Paula Marshall:Thank you. I'm actingMichael Jamin:Acting.Paula Marshall:But California occasion, it was my first day onset naked, fake fucking. And I remember standing there, it was yesterday, and either tweaking you and touching you up. And I say to everyone, what's amazing, what I'll do for $2,900 when a strike is pending? It was the writer's strike way back in the day. And I remember getting this part on fornication and I'm like to all the girls in the audition room, when we used to have auditions in rooms with other people, I looked around, I'm like, we're not going to really have to be naked. We're not those type of actresses. And they're like, no, no, no. And I'm like standing there. Yeah, yeah. I was naked.Michael Jamin:Was that your first time in a show being naked? I meanPaula Marshall:ToplessMichael Jamin:ShowPaula Marshall:On a show?Michael Jamin:Yes. Because you were in a model, I'm sure as a model, you're doing wardrobe changes all the time.Paula Marshall:I used to model. I was naked a few things back in the day.Michael Jamin:So were you really nervous about it? I mean, I imagine you would be, butPaula Marshall:Standing there naked is one thing. You just kind of have to dive in the pool, in the cold, cold pool and let it go because you got to put on the confident jacket, I guess I obviously wore a lot around you, but I mean it's more uncomfortable, the fake sex scenes, it's more technical and awkward. It's just but nervous. I dunno. Yeah, you're excited. But I'm also excited when I walk on stage on a sitcom before, if I'm not already in the set, when they start rolling, I'm backstage. How's my hair? Shit, how am I doing? Okay? I get hyped up until you do it once and people laugh and you're like, oh,Michael Jamin:Okay. Are you worried about going up on your lines at all? Is that at all you're thinking about?Paula Marshall:Yes, especially now. Oh shit, my memory. It's just that prevagen, I'm going to look it up later, but yeah, you do. But if you in a sitcom situation, we run it, we rehearse it all week. StillMichael Jamin:The lines are changing all week. That's all IPaula Marshall:Know. But they're changing all week. But then you run it and you drill it on TV shows like euphoria or whatever. Yeah, you run it. But then again, they don't really change the lines at all. But yeah, you were a little bit, but then you got a great script supervisor that you're like, I'm up. And then they say it and then you go back and you do it. But yeah, always, I'm always really nervous until maybe the second takeMichael Jamin:Of any, the hardest thing it seems to me is just like, okay, you're naked and you have to forget that there's all these people there. You havePaula Marshall:ToMichael Jamin:Completely, it's almost like you're crazy to have to be able to forget that,Paula Marshall:Michael, when you paid $2,900.That's right. I was shocked. That's all you get for being naked. Yeah, you do. You are nervous. But I don't know. I was 40 then, so I looked pretty good naked, although I only had four days notice. Back then we didn't have ozempic, so I was like, okay, I can't, no salt, no bread. And I remember in that shot that the camera guy, they decided in the moment, Hey, can you walk over to David? And then bent over, he's on the bed and then kiss him. I'm like, well, that depends. What's your lens there? You got there? And I'm like, how wide is your lens? And he looked at me and I'm like, I'm a photographer. I like taking pictures. So I know. And I'm like, so I'm going to bend over with my white ass and I had four days notice on this and my ass is just going to be in the pretty much. And you're like, okay, I could do it. But you hope for body makeup. I don't know. Don't you think I had any, I should have demanded bodyMichael Jamin:Makeup. And this was probably even before there were, what do they call them now? IntimacyPaula Marshall:Coordinators?Michael Jamin:Yes. Right.Paula Marshall:I mean, here's the thing. I guess it helps when you're not a loud mouth person like me. And even then it's hard to go, Hey dude, keep your tongue in your mouth. You don't want it in your mouth. Sometimes you're like, damn. He's a great kisser. Jason Bateman, I enjoyed the tongue in my mouth. SoMichael Jamin:It kind of dependsPaula Marshall:On who's sticking in the tongue. But the intimacy coordinator, I think it's just so people know what's going to kind of happen and get it. But California case, no, we didn't have that. This movie I was naked on with Peter Weller called The New Age. No, I remember in the middle of the scene, I'm on the bed and he's looking down at me and during one take he decides to suck on my nipple. Shocking. I turned bright red, which is what I do when I get nervous. And I'm like, dude, what are you doing? He goes, I dunno, I just thought it'd be fun. I'm like, okay. And I don't think they used it, but if there was an intimacy coordinator back then, I probably would've known.Michael Jamin:Yeah. So it'sPaula Marshall:Good I guess. But it's corny and you feel silly.Michael Jamin:Oh my God, I'm glad you mentioned the photography thing. That was one of my memories from working together and out of practice. This was before people had camera phones and cell phones and you carried a camera everywhere. And I remember thinking, you're the star of a sitcom. You're the star. I mean, you're an artist doing her craft, and yet it's still not enough that you wanted to work on something. You wanted to do something else as well.Paula Marshall:Maybe it's my parents growing up, they always had these really cool black and white pictures of them. And I used to look at them and go, wow, that was your life then. And it was hard to even imagine when they were so young. And so it's like photos are life to me. And I guess I don't want to forget the moments of my life that are important. And so I always would bring a camera with me on set, on location more than sitcom stages aren't as conducive to really cool shots. But yeah, I like capturing life.Michael Jamin:And you're still doing it on 35Paula Marshall:Millimeter? I still do it, although I did give in and I have a digital now because it's easier. It's easier. Develop film.Michael Jamin:Many. You took my headshot from me and for many years I way too long. I used that as my headshot.Paula Marshall:Yeah, it was good. I rememberMichael Jamin:It was great. And I wore Danny's shirt, you go, yeah, put this on. You look terrible. Whatever I was wearing, stillPaula Marshall:Do that. People still come over my friends and I'm like, you need a headshot. Put Danny's shirt on. He has some nice shirts.Michael Jamin:It's so funny.Paula Marshall:Yeah, I do. I still like taking pictures.Michael Jamin:I got to share another memory I had from out of practice, which I cherish this one. So it was right before it was show night for some reason. I don't know why. I had to run up pages to the cast. And maybe you were in the green room or you were somewhere upstairs. I don't know what the hell dressing. I don't know what was going on. I knock on the door and all of you we're standing in a circle holding hands. And Henry goes, Michael, you're just in inside. Come on in. And then I go in time for what? And then he tapped. This blew my, I love this memory. And you guys were just like, I don't know what you would call it, but you were invoking a good show to be supportive of each other and to be brave and true. And I was like, I can't believe I felt so honored that I was included in, I was like, are you serious,Paula Marshall:Henry? I actually forgot that memory and thank you for reminding me of it. Henry's just, he's something special.Michael Jamin:He is.Paula Marshall:I know there's rumors. Oh, who's the nicest guy in Hollywood? Henry Winkler. It's because it is, is I could text him right now and he would literally text me. Within eight minutes he will text me back. Oh, Paula, it's been so, he's just a dear. And so he is, again, back to the, when you go on set and who creates that energy? Although Chris Gorham, I think was the first on the call sheet, not Henry Winkler, but Henry was our dad. I mean, he was such a pro and yeah, he just created this lovely energy there.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Oh wow. So that's not common then for other shows that you've worked on. People don't do that. That's not a theater thing. It seems like a theater thingPaula Marshall:You would think. I think, I don't know, maybe it was a happy days thing.Michael Jamin:Why don't you start it on your next show? Why don't you start doingPaula Marshall:It? I think I might. I'm going to make it now.Michael Jamin:I thought it was so interesting. I was like, wow. But it's getting back to that first point, even the first, the first person on the call sheet technically is the head cheese. But they might not be the most difficult by far at all. I mean, you don't know who's the boss. That's true, right?Paula Marshall:I mean sometimes the and character is an asshole. I mean, I think mostly people when they don't really want to be there, they kind of rebel. I've always wanted to be on a sitcom. IMichael Jamin:Remember. Did that change? Oh, go ahead, please.Paula Marshall:I just remember, I believe my first sitcom was Seinfeld. I may have done a guest spot on some other one that maybe never aired or I can't remember. Or maybe I just think it's cooler to say my first sitcom was Seinfeld. I'm not sure. But that show, I don't know. There's a magic. But they didn't do any of that either. But they kind of really invited me in and I dunno, I'm just thinking,Michael Jamin:Do you prefer to do sitcoms, multi-camera sitcoms? Yes. Yes. Because the audience.Paula Marshall:Because the audience, because it's a high, I've never gotten anywhere else in my life. Not that I need to be high, but damn. When you go out and you make people laugh with a look or a line or a physical movement, I mean it's magic. And working with the actor, knowing more like theater, which by the way, I've never doneMichael Jamin:Well, why don't you do theater then?Paula Marshall:I don't know. I don't know. I'll call my agent another thing I'll write down.Michael Jamin:Yeah, do that.Paula Marshall:But probably only if it's a comedy. But it's that magic that you don't have to go and do another take and then they turn around and then you got a close up again. I mean, it's boring. Like our television, there's no magic in itMichael Jamin:Ever.Paula Marshall:Except on euphoria. I have to say there's magic there.Michael Jamin:Why do you say that?Paula Marshall:Because the writing directing the story level of, I mean, when Marsha is my character, when Marsha actually had a couple things to say. I remember I called or I spoke with Sam Levinson and I was like, dude, it's me, right? You wrote an eight page monologue almost for Marsha to say. And he goes, yeah, I can't wait to see it. And I'm like, oh my God. I was so nervous. I studied for three weeks. There was no rewrites. And then it's me and Jacob all Lorde on set. And we get there and there's no rush, there's no limitation. There's just like, what do you want to do? And he's like, I kind of feel like you're doing this and then you're doing the cookies and a lot of movement. But we did it until it felt good, and then we knew it, and there was a magic there. No one's laughing at me. But there's something special about that show. I mean, I've heard rumors like, oh, and on set. And I'm like, ah, not for me. Not for me at all. Not for you. No, it's amazing.Michael Jamin:What do you do though? When you're on set and you have an idea how you want to play or speech, how you want to deliver speech, and your scene partner is just on doing something completely fucking different. How do you handle that?Paula Marshall:If you know, don't have a say, meaning you're a guest, darn. You do what they tell you to. How high do you want me to jump? That's what you do. But if you're working together and you're equal parties, you probably have run it before. But I would say if they're not doing something that I want, then I use it and I am frustrated in the scene, or I just use whatever they're giving me because that's all I got. And I try to put that into my character.Michael Jamin:How much training have you had though? That's very actor speak.Paula Marshall:It really did sound a little actory, and IMichael Jamin:Apologize for that. No, it's good. I like it.Paula Marshall:I mean, I don't know. I lived in New York City and I took acting class with this guy named Tony Aon and Jennifer Aniston was in my class and Oh wow.Just a bunch of young people, but not all that much. Not all that much. I think the comedy thing, I didn't even know I was funny with Seinfeld, the guest stars aren't usually funny in sitcoms. The lead, the main characters, the stars of the show are funny guest stars just kind of throw the ball and you know what I mean? But something happened after I was on Seinfeld and then I read for, I guess it was Wild Oats, which was with Paul Rudd and Jan Marie hpp. And Tim Conlin. It was a sitcom on Fox. It was the same year that another show called Friends was coming out. And I remember them. Someone was interviewing us saying, oh, there's another show that NBC is doing with a group of friends. It's kind of like yours. And we're all friends. What's that cut to?And ours was canceled after one season, but I think the first time I was like, oh shit, I can do this. I know how to deliver a joke. But I never learned that again. It just happened one year in pilot season just kind of happened. And my agents were like, oh, Paul is funny. Okay. And then one time I remember I read for a pilot, after you do so many comedies, then people go, well, she's a comedic actress, she can't do drama. And then you're like, the fuck. Of course I could do drama. I remember one time during this callback, no original, just the first audition. And I had heard the casting director doesn't think or only thinks you're funny, doesn't think you're as good. Dramatic. Wow.Michael Jamin:Obviously if you could do comedy, you could do drama.Paula Marshall:No, you would think it's the other way around. It never works. It is really hard to doMichael Jamin:Comedy.Paula Marshall:But literally, I was like, well, I'm so angry that she thinks I can't. Finally, they couldn't find this girl, the character for the pilot. And then they finally, okay, Paula, we'll see her. So I get in there, and it was Davis Guggenheim was the director. I love Davis. After I read, I think it was three scenes. And during the last scene, I broke down and I was in tears over something and I look up with, you couldn't have placed the tear better. And I look up and I ended the scene and Davis goes, my god, Paula Marshall, you are one fine actress. And I do this. I look at the casting drifter and I go, you see, I'm not just funny. And I grabbed my bag and I walked out and I go, well, I just fucked myself for any future director again. There was something that came over me and I was like, I need you to know that I am not just one thing or the other. And then Davis probably three weeks later, texts me, I've been fighting every day for you. And I'm like, what are you talking about when you get these weird texts from people? I'm like, did I get the part? I got the part and they didn't want to see me.Michael Jamin:It's so interesting. I mean, obviously you're a working actor, you work a lot. You're successful, and yet you still feel like you're placed in this box and you have to prove yourself and get out of it.Paula Marshall:But there's something I really love about, there's part of me that I want to read, and I want everyone to look at that tape and go, fuck, I wish we could hire her. I wish there weren't the limitations and we didn't have to pick Carla at you now or whatever. I wish we could pick Paula. I want them to go, fuck man. She was really good. I want to stick in their brain. I always would cancel auditions if I wasn't ready for it. If I really knew I wasn't going to kill it, I wouldn't go, or I won't put myself on tape. I don't have enough time to prepare for it because that's the last thing they see of you.Michael Jamin:IPaula Marshall:Want it to be the best thing they see of me. So I only want to leave them with that because they're not going to remember that other stuff.Michael Jamin:That's a good point though. Are you doing a lot of self tape now? Is there anything in person?Paula Marshall:I have not had any auditions in person yet. Wow. Her actress ever Carradine. I think she's had her third one, and she always posts about it. She's so cute. And I think she booked one. No, I have a room now in my house. It's the tape room. And I've got a nice beauty light and I've got the tripod again. It's kind of easy for me because I have photography stuff.Michael Jamin:But who are you acting again or does Danny help you out?Paula Marshall:Well, Danny will sometimes read with me. My daughter would read with me. And sometimes when I'm all by myself, I read with myself. I will have a tape of the other voice, which is, or sometimes I leave space and then I put the audio in later. I mean, it's crazy the stuff that happens during Covid. We've got very creative over here.Michael Jamin:But in some ways though, because this sometimes a casting director is like, yeah, yeah, there couldn't be more wooden. And so in some ways it's got to be easier for you, right?Paula Marshall:Yes and no. Yes, because I get to pick the take I want,Michael Jamin:Right?Paula Marshall:Two, because two, I didn't even say one a b, I don't get nervous, so there's no nerves to hold me back or Oh man, I should have done it. Or I mess up. I just do another take. But then there's also, there's something about going in and being vulnerable in front of all those people and showing them what you can do. And especially in a comedy, I, it was like a zoom callback for a comedy. And I live in the hills and maybe it was the wifi or that slight timing was off just enough or the reader wasn't funny and I'm trying to connect with this dot. It was hard. There was no magic in it and you couldn't feel the other person. And so I think in a way, it's good in a way. It's really not good. So I'm willing to do whatever to get anything because I pay for college.Michael Jamin:But also, there's also the fact the to drive across town, I mean, that's got to get old, right? Driving everywhere.Paula Marshall:But when you're an actor, everything stops. You get a script, everything stops. You're not making dinner, you're not going out, you're not watching that movie or the show. You drop everything and then you focus on it. And hopefully, thankfully, because of the strike and the new negotiations that they got for us, I think we don't have to do a self tape over the weekend. We need to have enough time to actually prepare for it, which is amazing. Most of the time. Gary unmarried, I think I got the audition at eight o'clock in the morning. It was to meet producers at 11 o'clock the next day. And you're like, ah, okay, here I go. It's really hard to put all that energy and to them something great. And I never understand why you're casting people or producers. Don't give us more time because we want to give you something great. We don't want to go in there and read. I don't. I want to perform for you. And it's hard to do when I don't have enough time to do it. I also have a life, so I have other things, but you kind of do. You really drop it. You drop everything for an audition.Michael Jamin:It's interesting though. I want to get touched on something you said. You said it's hard to be vulnerable on camera, but then you said comedy, and do you feel like it's harder to be vulnerable? Because when I think of vulnerable, I think drama, not comedy.Paula Marshall:Yes. But there's nothing funnier. I remember my husband in many situations will say, I'll be upset or crying and I'll say something really funny, but humor comes out of the reality, like your honest to goodness, open soul, like your heart. The funniest stuff I think comes out of me when I'm in a vulnerable position, if I'm angry, if I'm sad when I'm just feeling whatever. So I don't know. I think in many sitcoms I've cried. And how do youMichael Jamin:Get past that though? How do you get past that vulnerability thing? I mean, are you a hundred percent past it or is there any reservations?Paula Marshall:Ask that again. Sorry.Michael Jamin:Very clear saying, well, when you're vulnerable on camera or trying to be, can you go, I don't know. Is there a limit to your vulnerability, do you think on camera or are you willing to go there all the time? As much, as far as you want?Paula Marshall:I guess so most of the time it depends on how much tears you have. And I usually, if the writing is good, and that's the big if this thing that I ended up booking with Davis Guggenheim, it was with John Corbett, and I had to cry and it was maybe like a steady cam up the stairs and going, and I break down and I crumbled to my knees, and I swear to God, I did it. Maybe 17 takes. And then we come around and turn around on him and I end up crying again. And John, after we, they yelled cut, he goes, Paula, what are you doing? Why are you crying again? I go, I don't know. The words are making me cry. I'm just tapped in doing it. They wipe it away. But you got to be careful because I'm vain and you got to look like you're not crying, and I'm really crying.So I get red and my eyes get bloodshot. You look different and the snot and you got to fix the whatever, makeup. But no, but when it's great, when the writing is great, of course, usually you don't have to do it. 17 takes, it was just had a lot to do with the steady cam and whatever. But usually you do it in three takes and you nail it and it's good, and they're like, wow, that was great. Let's move on. So you don't really have to in a movie, if you nail it, you nail it and they move on.Michael Jamin:What do you do though when you're in it and you feel like you're slipping out of it?Paula Marshall:Okay, so that when I drink this, soI have at least one of those before every tape night, I've always drink a Coke. If I can't, the writing isn't talking to me. If I can't relate to it, I do that substitute thing. If I have to cry, and this is really not making me cry, the subject and the words I substitute for something else that makes me cry. I'm a freakishly emotional person. I cry a lot. I'm very sensitive. You wouldn't really think that because kind of like Danny calls me bottom line, Marshall, and I'm very tough and whatever and no nonsense. And I say it like it is, and I will always tell you if you look fat in that dress, I like to be honest, but I don't know.Michael Jamin:But is there a moment where you feel like you're okay? You're on, you're giving a speech, you're in a scene, and then you're like, oh, I'm acting now.Paula Marshall:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, every once in a while, I mean, I'll finish the scene. I don't want to stop myself. They might like it and for whatever reason, but I'll always say, can I have another one? Can I please have another one? Or Oh my gosh, I really like the second take. Just can you make a note of that, that the second take was much better. They know it's obvious when you see someone telling the truth, it's obvious which one is better, but you can't just tell the truth once and then move on because you don't know. Maybe there was a sound issue on that take. No. So it's tricky. Every once in a while you think you have it. The crappy thing is when they come around to you or they start on you and then you finally figure something out. I remember Bette Midler, we were doing the scene and they were on us first.It was a movie, I guess Danny and I did the scene together and it was bet opposite on a table. And they go to her, they turn the camera on her, and then she goes, oh, I just figured it out. We're like, no, the opposite. We did her first. Forgive me. We did her first and then they came on us. And then she goes, oh, I just figured out the scene. Can I do it again? And Carl Reiner's like, no, we got to move. No, we're out of here. So sometimes it takes a while to figure it all out, and she just thought she didn't nail it. It's Bette Midler. She nails every take all the timeMichael Jamin:You are listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, A collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timal. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and Kirks Review says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book. And now back to our show.Do you have these conversations with them? Do you have conversations with actors with more experience and I don't know, are you still trying to learn from them?Paula Marshall:I just pay attention to what they're doing. I don't think I pick their brains like that, but I just watch them and I watch and I seeMichael Jamin:What are you looking for?Paula Marshall:Well, sometimes technically how they do it. I remember my first movie, Hellraiser three, I learned a lot about continuity,Which is something they don't really teach in acting class. If I'm going to play my drink up and sip it, I have to do that every single time. If I'm going to eat in the scene, I got to do it every single time, and I have to figure that out. And you have to really, if you're really going to eat, you got to really eat. Not teeny little bites, make your choice. But I learned things from different people. I remember Robert Duvall, I played his daughter in a movie and he would act and he kept going until his body knew it was over. And I remember the director had yelled cut at one point and he got really mad. He goes, I wasn't done, but he had finished talking. And he goes, I'm still acting here. It's like, I'm still walking here. But it was like, I'm still acting.I'm still doing, there's still so much more there. I observe and I see how they deal with issues and problems in their focus. ISHKA Harte guest star on that show of hers, and we auditioned a lot in the beginning. We came up at the same time and just everything was so serious to her. She really so passionate about her show and she threw away nothing. It was really kind of impressive after a hundred seasons now that she cared so much because some people after four Seasons, they're like ready to go. They're like, I got a movie down, I'm ready to go. But there's certain people like Maka who from day one till again, I think it's 25 seasons or 24 or something crazy. I remember when I worked with her and I hadn't seen her in 15 years or something, I just am like, God, how rich is she? And so instead I was like, tacky. I'm not going to say that. So again, I walk up to her and it was emotional that we hadn't seen each other in so long. I hugged her and I said, how big is your house? She goes, I can't complain.Michael Jamin:I'm like,Paula Marshall:But she's very passionate and so many actors are, and then there's some who are not and who are ready to goMichael Jamin:And who are they? Not names, but why are they there? Are they just rock stars who became actors? You don't know. It just falls into a job like that.Paula Marshall:There was one person and he just seemed really angry all the time. I don't think he was just a happy person. If you don't like doing this, I'm not sure why you're doing it. I don't know. There's just something inside you. I mean, this is the greatest thing ever to be paid to do what you love. And again, when my daughter said she wanted to be an actress, an actor, sorry, I was so happy. I was like, that's where I found joy in my life. I grew up in Rockville, Maryland, and I didn't know anybody, and I just watched the Mary Tyler Moore show, and I went, yep, that's what I want.How do I do that? I had no idea, none. And to find joy there. So when a person is coming to set and they're angry, it could be, they don't like the words actors are very particular about. If your dialogue is not great, it's really hard. It's so much easier when you have great dialogue and the scene makes sense and the relationships you buy them. It's so easy to do it. It's effortless and it's so real and it's so honest. And then when you've got this other stuff and you have to say the name of the person to remember that it's very cookie cutter network television, which you would think at this point would look at streaming and go, yeah, there's always something right over there because the quality is just beyond Well,Michael Jamin:How did you figure it out then? Okay, you're in Maryland. How did you figure out you stopped in New York first. What was that about?Paula Marshall:Did I moved to New

I’ve been a television writer for the past 27 years. While I’ve written on some amazing shows, the work that I’m most proud of is my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It’s the funniest, it’s the deepest, and it’s the one that will hit you hardest in the heart. These are the deeply personal, true stories of an awkward, sensitive man searching for the things that are most important: identity, love, forgiveness, and redemption. It's available now for your reading pleasure.Show NotesFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/A Paper Orchestra on Audible - https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1A Paper Orchestra on Amazon - https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestraA Paper Orchestra on Website - https://michaeljamin.com/bookFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:Yeah, but the problem is they don't help you. They design the book cover. You don't get a choice of what the book cover is. Maybe they give you three choices, but that's about it. They decide how they want and they decide what the title of the book is because you sold 'em the rights. So why am I giving away all this power to someone who hasn't earned it? Why am I making them rich? Why am I giving them any creative input at all when the whole point of this was for me to have a hundred percent creative input? You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase and to support me on this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book now on with the show. Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to What the Hell Is Michael Jamin talking about the podcast where we explore art, creativity, and writing. Oh, it's a big announcement today, Phil. Phil's back, big dayPhil Hudson:Back. Happy to be back. Thank you for having me.Michael Jamin:Big day. We're finally building up. This has been a long project. Phil book, my book, A Paper Orchestra Drops or dropped if you're hearing this. It's available, it's, it's alreadyPhil Hudson:Dropped. It's available yesterday, so go get it now.Michael Jamin:It's called a paper orchestra and it's a collection of personal essays. If you're a fan of David Sedaris, I think of it as David Sedaris meets Neil Simon. And this has been my passion project for years. I've been working on this and I'm very excited to put it out in the world. As you can get it on print, you can get it on audiobook, you can get it as ebook, however you consume your books, and you can get it everywhere. You can go get it on michael jamin.com. You can find it on Amazon, on Barnes and Noble or Audible for the audio audiobook. Anywhere, anywhere you get Apple. If you want to get the ebook, it's everywhere, Phil. It's everywhere.Phil Hudson:It's like you got a real publishing deal except you didn't.Michael Jamin:Well, I'm doing it myself,Phil Hudson:And we'll go into that. I want people to understand you chose to self-publish this at this point, but that's not how we started. And we've talked a bit about that when we changed the podcast title and we talked a bit about it. We're talking about your live shows, but I think this is like, let's celebrate Michael Jamin a little bit today because you're always talking to people to build the mountain, to climb. You are now at the top of that mountain, and I imagine you're looking over and saying, oh crap, look, that other peak there I've got to get to now.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I already am. Yeah, for sure. Lot of it. And I hope this inspires a lot of you. There's so many people who are like, I want to sell my screenplay, or I want to help me break in, help me, help me. But there's so much that you can do. So unempowering disempowering, you're basically hoping that someone else is going to make your career, buy my script, make my movie. But there's so much that you can do on your own, and you may think it's more work because you're doing it yourself, but it's actually less work because now you don't have to count on someone else to do it for you. You can stop begging, you can stop worrying about all the rejection because when you're selling your scripts or trying to, you're going to get rejected by 99 out of a hundred people. But if you just build it yourself, there's so much you can do. The year we live in, it's so empowering. Everyone has a phone and you can shoot on your phone, you can make a movie. Everyone has a miniature movie studio. There's so much we all can do and on our own. And so I'm just going to share a little bit about the journey that I've been on when I started writing this book.So basically this started well over four years ago, maybe five years ago. I told my wife that I was just at a point in my life where I felt a little disheartened by, a little bored by what I was writing in television because when I write for tv, and I'm very grateful to have a job and a career, but I'm always writing what someone is paying me to write. And I'm very rarely writing what I want to write. I'm paying what someone pays me to write or what I can sell, but that's not how I started writing when I was in college and in high school. I just wanted to write what I wanted to write. And so I went for a walk with my wife one day and I was like, I have a really bad idea. I'm thinking of writing a collection of personal essays, which is what David Seras writes. And I love his writing. I've read everything. He's written multiple times. You show him your card, you got a card back there, don't you? Oh yeah. Yeah. He actually, I sent him a piece of fan letter, a fan mail three years ago. But I've read him so much. I knew that he would respond. He talks about, I knew he would respond. It just took him three years to respond, but it was very kind of him.So yeah, so I started writing. I wanted to write this project. I wanted to write what I want to write. I wanted to tell stories the way I wanted to tell them without network notes, without a partner, without. I just wanted to see what I can do on my own without having someone telling me what to do or breathing down my back or saying, no, it should be this or that. What can I do? And so I told that to Cynthia and she said, that's a great idea. And I said, but you don't understand even if I sell it, I'm not going to make a lot of money from it and it's going to take me years and years to do. She goes, you got to do it anyway, because if you do, you will find yourself in the process. And I was like, okay.And at the time, I was really in a bad place. I was just very upset about stuff mentally. I was in a bad place. I was like, okay, I'll start writing. And that's what I did. I remember I had listened to a lot of David C's audio books, but I had never read him. So I was like, I better read him. And then I bought a bunch of books and I read the first one. I remember I was lying in bed. I was reading the first book and I'm about halfway through and I'm thinking, where's this guy going? What's he doing here? Where's he going with this? And then I got to the end of the piece and the ending was such a wonderful ending. I was like, oh my God. And I almost threw the book across the room. I was, I was so mad.I was like, this is going to be so much harder than I thought it was going to be. I thought it was going to be easy or natural, not easy, but just considering I'm a writer, I didn't think it would be that difficult. So then I just started studying him and I got all his books and I read them multiple times over and over again, and the more I read, I was just trying to look for patterns and trying to learn from him. And that kind of just began, that was the beginning of this journey just to study, study what I wanted to do.Phil Hudson:You're constantly telling people to study their craft, and you talk about story and story structure. You have a course on that. Most of your content you put on social media is dedicated to helping people understand that your webinars are often about resetting people's expectations about what a writing career looks like and helping them focus on what really matters. And the undertone that I've witnessed over the last two, two and a half years of this process with you of at least starting the podcast and helping with social media and that stuff, it's all based under the reality or the realization that creativity is worth doing just to be creative and that there's value in that process beyond monetary pay or paychecks.Michael Jamin:Well, yeah, for sure. When I first started writing these stories, the first two, first several were not very good. I was writing in David Sari's voice because I didn't know how else to do it. The ironic thing, as a TV writer, I'm always writing in someone else's voice. I'm writing in the character's voice or the voice of the show, but this is my voice, and this is the first time I actually had to do that. And so because I'm a good mimic and because I had just read so much of him, I was kind of writing, I was kind of the writer like him, and I thought the first two stories were good. And then I set it down for a couple of weeks and I read it with fresh eyes and I thought, oh, this is terrible. It felt like a cheap knockoff. It felt like me pretending I was him and I hated it.I threw all those stories out and then I had to figure out, okay, what's my voice? And that was a long discovery. But the reason why, this is a long way of saying this, those first several stories I wrote, I don't know, maybe six or seven stories, and it just take months and months. At one point, I reach out to my agent. I'm at a very big prestigious Hollywood agency. They do. They represent me in film and tv, and I reached out to my agent. I told him what I was working on. I said, Hey, do we have a book agency, a book department? He said, of course we do. What do I know? I tell him what I was doing. I said, can you hook me up with one of your agents? He goes, sure. So I reach out to their agents. This guy's in New York now, he doesn't have to take, just so people know, I told 'em what I was doing. He doesn't have to take me on as a client, but he has to take the call.I'm banging them. They got to take the call. He doesn't have to bring me on to represent him in books though. And so I told him what I was doing. He goes, oh, that sounds interesting. Send me what you have. I go, well, I only have a handful of stories, but I'll send you what I have. So I emailed them to him. I never heard back. I didn't hear back for probably six months at this point. And I'm still writing more stories. It doesn't matter, whatever. I'm thinking maybe he read it, he didn't read it, he doesn't like it, whatever. I'm not going to stop writing them though. And I just kept on writing all these stories. Finally, six months later, he reaches out to me. He goes, I'm so sorry it took me so long to read these. I love them. Let's get on the phone and talk about them.I was like, sure. He goes, and he was like, when we spoke, he said, he said, do you have any more? Because he only read whatever. I sent him maybe six stories, and I go, as a matter of fact, yeah, I'm almost done with the collection. Give me another couple of weeks and I'll send you the entire collection. So at that point, but again, I'm writing it because I want to write it. I want to do this. I'm not thinking about how much money I'm going to make. I'm thinking about the process of writing and figuring out how to learn. I had to relearn how to write because I'm a TV writer who now is writing books. There's a little difference. There's some difference to it.Phil Hudson:Yeah. A couple things here. I love the narrative, and I don't want to interrupt the narrative, but I think there's some topics that are coming up here. Is it okay if we just dive into those for a second? Yeah, please. Okay. You talked about David Sedaris and you were reading this and you're like, where is this going? And then it ended in this way. That was almost upsetting because it was so beautiful and so well done. What I'm hearing you say is something you talk about regularly on the podcast and in your social media content, which is the way you unpack your story is the job of being a writer. And that's almost effectively what I'm hearing is that's your craft and your tone and your style. You still have to understand story structure and you understand these things. But the unpacking, would you say that that's an example of what you're talking about when you say how you unpack something matters?Michael Jamin:Yes, and the thing is, I've really tried to study him. I think he's the gold standard. I think he's a master, a beautiful writer. There's certain things I was able to learn and certain things I was not able to unpack. And so I learned a lot from him for sure. But some things still remain a mystery to me from how he writes. I can't see through it, and I'm good at seeing through some stuff. So take that for what it's worth. I do remember thinking, I had long conversations with my wife when we were about this. I didn't want people to think that the book was written by a sitcom writer. I wanted it to be funny and dramatic, but I didn't want people to say, oh, this guy's, I wanted it to be a little smarter than just a sitcom, I guess. And so I was very self-conscious about that.And we had long conversations of Is this art? How do I make art? What is art? How do I do this? So it feels like art and what I really came, it was a really eye-opening moment for me, and it came from much of what I learned about how to do this. I learned not from writers, David is probably the only writer who I really studied a lot for this book, but I learned a lot from watching interviews with musicians, ironically, about how they approached their art. And I found that to be more helpful than listening to other writers. And one of the really interesting things, I was like, well, we know there's a market for what David Sedera says. We know people like what he does, so why am I trying to reinvent things? Why not just kind of do what he's doing? And there's two reasons why not.One, I'm not him. I can't be him ever. And that's almost the tragedy of the whole thing is I want to write, this guy can write, but I never ever will. So you're going to have to let go of that, which is almost tragic. But the other thing is, it's my responsibility not to, as an artist, if you want to make art, then add, you have to bring new to the equation. You have to bring new, and that actually, I picked up, I believe I picked up from an interview with watching Pharrell talk about music.Phil Hudson:That's awesome.Michael Jamin:Which is basically he's saying, listen, your job is to bring something new to the conversation, is to put the youness into it. Whatever is you, that's what you have to put into it. And that was very reassuring to hear it from him. I was like, oh, okay, now I can lean into me.Phil Hudson:This resonates with me. And what I wrote down here is that you can look outside of your space for inspiration. And I think this again ties to the fact that creativity is self, it's for the self. Rick Rubin, the producer, you're familiar with him. I think most people are at this point. I was just watched a clip of him in an interview and he said, I have never made music for a fan. When you do, it's bad when I make it for myself or when I do it because it's something that I like that resonates with the listener. And would you say that's what you're doing here is you're writing this for you in your tone because it's the best pure expression of your art?Michael Jamin:Well, yes, yes and no. Some of it, it's very truthful. It's very painfully truthful. It's very intimate. I go there. I think that's what makes it interesting. I think that's my job as a writer. It's my obligation as a writer is to figure out what the truth is and figure out how to tell it. But I also keep the audience in mind, and maybe that's just because of my background as a team writer.Phil Hudson:Yeah, you're an entertainer to a degree because that's what you do, is you want people to tune in for 23, 25 minutes per week, have a good time, forget their worries, and then leave having gotten something from what you've done. Well,Michael Jamin:It's also,Phil Hudson:But I don't know, that negates what Rick Rubin's talking about because it's like when you read, when you're putting out here, do you feel like you are getting the same value out of it that you would hope a reader would, or are you hoping the reader gets more value out of it than what you're getting out of it?Michael Jamin:Well, I don't know. I mean, first I keep them in mind. I picture my reader with a remote control in their hand. That's just become from me, a TV writer. So how do I make sure this story is compelling so that they want to turn the page? But I do keep them in mind in terms of how do I make this story not about me, but about all of us. And I think that's important because this has the danger of becoming very self-indulgent. These are true stories from my life, but I tell them in a way with art, so that you really feel like you're reading a character in a book. I am a character. The character of Michael is in this story, so it's not like, and then this happened, then this happened. I'm not telling you how I broke into Hollywood, although there are stories about that. I'm really telling you about the stories. These are stories of rejection. These are stories of triumph. There are stories there meant to be, the details are mine, but the stories are all of ours. So that's how I feel I'm telling them is like, okay, so that you can totally relate to this so you can feel, okay, I had something very similar and me explaining it to you helps you understand it, hopefully.Phil Hudson:And not to jump ahead, I saw you last year for my birthday, do a performance. My wife and I came out and there's a story, was it, is that what it's called?Michael Jamin:The Goul? Yeah, thePhil Hudson:Goul. Still a year later, 13 months later, still thinking about that goul because as a new father and then hearing your perspective as a father with children leaving the home, yeah, there's a lot of beauty and regret in that story that is paralleling the decisions I'm making now with my children who are young and what I want my life and my relationship to be like with them. So yeah, I think you absolutely check that box. You said, I've heard you say before, you want people to leave and sit there and think about it, have been impacted by what's happening. And I can tell you that that's been very true for me.Michael Jamin:That's been my, because, so Phil came to, I performed this, and if you want to see me perform, you can go to In Your Town if I travel with it, michael jamin.com/upcoming. But that's one of the stories. That's actually one of the stories I gave out to reviewers to review the book and people, they like that story. But yeah, my goal when I write any story, and hopefully I achieve this, is people say, I couldn't put it down. That seems to be the nicest thing you could say about a book. I couldn't put it down. I want you to put the book down. I want you to get to a chapter and just be so moved at the end of it that you're not ready to move forward. You just want to sit in that emotion for however long it takes you, whatever it is, just sit in it.I don't want you to, it's not meant to be consumed that way. And one of the things that I tried to achieve, I made, we did an audio book and I hired whatever. I partnered with Anthony Rizzo, who's the composer I worked with on Marin. He's a really talented writer composer. And so for the audio book, I would send him each chapter. And then I said to him, he's like, what do you want? I go, no, no, no. I want you to read this piece, interpret it. Tell me what it sounds like to you in music. What's your version of, he's an artist. What does this sound like to you in music? And that's what he came back with. And so at the end in the audiobook, if you prefer to consume it that way, at the end of the story, we go right into the music and it forces you, or not forces you, but allows you to sit in it. It allows you to sit in whatever motion it is. The music carries you out for 30 seconds or however long it is, just so now you can experience it in music, which I love that I just love. I thought he brought so much to the audiobook. I'm so grateful he hopped on board.Phil Hudson:I normally listen to audiobooks at 1.5 to 1.75 speed, and then the music kind of throws that off. This is one I would absolutely listen to in real time. JustMichael Jamin:Slow it down. Yeah, down,Phil Hudson:Slow it down and just sit in it and give yourself the treat and the opportunity to sit in that. I think very often we are constantly looking for the next thing or to get ahead or checking off stuff on our list. And that's not what this book is. This book is a sit in it, allow yourself to feel it. Think about how you can apply it. There's just some beautiful life lessons in here as well.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I hope so. That was my goal.Phil Hudson:Yeah, I think it's achieved. And I've talked to several people in your advanced reader group who feel the same way.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:And you've got fans in there, but these are people who are very sincere with their compliments as well. And there's some great compliments coming your way from that advanced group.Michael Jamin:And so thank you. Honestly, I like to do more of this kind of writing, and this is, to me is very fulfilling at this stage of my career. To me, it's more exciting doing this than writing a TV show that might be seen by millions of people writing something that can make someone just make you laugh, but then feel something. It's funny, I have sort of a recipe and I'm wondering, people can see through it at some point, but I don't really care. My recipe is if I can get you to laugh in the beginning, I just want you to open up. Let's just start laughing about stuff and it start, most of my stories start out very fun and light, and then you kind of relax into, oh, this is going to be fun. And you let your guard down, and as soon as your guard comes down, then I hit you as really hard, as hard as I can with something emotional where I talk about, and because you're in my writing course, you'll know where this happens, where this happens structurally. And then at that point, once I hit him in the heart, there's no point in being funny anymore. The humor has already achieved its goal, which is to you to get your guard down. And soPhil Hudson:Engaged, paying attention, it's something, some advice, I know it's standard advice, but it advice used specifically gave me a long time ago, which is it's easy to kill people. It's hard to make them laugh, and so you're almost checking the box on the humor part, so they're completely engaged and engrossed in what's going on, which is why the emotional impact of the reality of this story hits so hard later. Yeah,Michael Jamin:There were times I thought maybe I'm being too funny here in the beginning, I'm not even sure, but because I didn't want any of this to feel silly, I just wanted it to be fun until, but yeah, tonally, there's, I guess some stories are a little lighter than others for sure.Phil Hudson:Yeah, it's good stuff. Going back to what you're telling though, in this narrative of how we got to where you are, you said that you reached out to your agent who got you in touch with the literary agent effectively for books and publishing, and a lot of people, myself included, might be tempted to submit to the agent and then wait and do nothing. And you made a point of saying you continued to write. And the question when he came back is, do you have more? So a lot of people, I think the mistake is that they're putting all their eggs in the basket. And we see this all the time with the questions on the webinars for the podcast, for your live q and as, when you do them on social media, whatever it is, how do I get an agent? How do I get a representative? How do I get a showrunner attached? How do I do this? And it's like you say you're putting all the power in the hands of somebody else and you're saying that's the wrong thing to do. And because you didn't, because you're writing for yourself to do the job, and you didn't wait for one person to make your career, you were even more successfulMichael Jamin:In getting, and he doesn't care. I mean, he's a good guy and everything, but he doesn't care if I achieve this. What does he care? All he wants is, is he going to make money from this? And that's fair enough. He has to make money, so my dream is my dream. I have to make my dream happen. And so yes, then turned it into him. We sent it out, and then the feedback I got was, Hey, this is really great, but platform drives acquisition. I said, well, what does that mean? It means you need to have a social media following. I said, really? It's not good enough that it's well written. No, not anymore. Maybe 30 years ago. But today the industry publishing has changed as much as Hollywood has changed, it's really can they sell it? And now it's sold on social media. You're expected to have that.And I was a little upset about that. I was like, why can't it just be good enough? Everyone loved it, but platform drives acquisition. I said, all right, well, how big of a social media following do I need? This is two and a half years ago. And I couldn't get a straight answer that no one really knew, but especially in the space of They had a good point, Phil. They really did. It's not like this is not a novel. These are personal essays. But like I said, they're told story-wise, not if you didn't know me. You'd be like, oh, this is a nice story. But it just so happens that it's true. But the point that they made was, or maybe I made it with myself. I think that's what it was. I was like, if you were to go to Barnes and Noble and my book was on the shelf, why would someone buy it if they don't know who I am?Because there's true stories. Who cares if you don't know who I am? And that's a fair thing to ask. Why would someone pick it off the shelf? Now, here's the thing, as I was arguing with myself, but here's the thing. No one goes to Barnes and Nobles anymore. That's not where people get books. I mean, they exist, but most people just get it online. Most of the books are sold online. So why do I need to be in Barnes and no, I don't. I need, I mean, I can be, but it's not necessary. And so I was like, okay. And then I was like, well, if I build the platform, if I get a big following and people want to support me and buy the book curious and they like what I have to say and they think I'm talented, great. But then why do I need a publisher?What do they bring to the equation, honestly? Oh, they can get your book in barge. Oh, well, great, but no one goes there anymore. So what exactly did they do? And by the way, they get most of the money. I'm like, okay, well, they help you design the book cover, but the problem is they don't help you. They design the book cover. You don't get a choice of what the book cover is. Maybe they give you three choices, but that's about it. They decide how they want and they decide what the title of the book is. You sold 'em the Rights. So why am I giving away all this power to someone who hasn't earned it? Why am I making them rich? Why am I giving any creative input at all? When the whole point of this was for me to have a hundred percent creative input? I remember at one point, because I had talked to other people in the publishing world and they thought your title could be better. It's called the Paper Orchestra. I was like, yeah, but I think I like the title, but no one really knows what it means. And I'm like, yeah, you got a good point. No one knows what it means untilPhil Hudson:I remember this conversation,Michael Jamin:And then it was ironically, I had a long talk with my daughter. It was on my birthday, and we went for a long walk, and she's so smart, and she says, well, why are she said to me, I thought the whole point of the book was for you to just write what you wanted to write without anyone giving you No. I said, yeah. She goes, well, why are you changing the title? I said, yeah, why am I changing the title? Why am I second guessing myself? So I did it my way. I did a hundred percent my way, and this is my book.This is my expression without having anyone telling me it's wrong, it's different. It should be this or that. Along the way. I got to say, Phil, it's so frustrating for, it's so frustrating to hear this kind of stuff, I think, but it's like I understand what people want. I want this. I want a complete creative expression. And to me, that's the satisfaction. Whether I sell a hundred copies or one copy or a million copies, it's the process that I got so much joy out of. And I think that's what people will enjoy. I mean, it's like I had so many agents, even afterwards, they find me on social media, they reach out to me, go, and I tell 'em what my book is, and they go, oh, that sounds nice, but if you write a young adult novel, I can sell that for you. Or if you write a how to book, we can sell that. I'm like, if I don't want to write those, this is what I want to write. This is exactly what I wanted to write. You got to do it yourself.Phil Hudson:That's right. And that's what you tell people. You got to basically make your mountain, create your mountain, and then climb your mountain.Michael Jamin:And all of it's doable. It's just going to take a long time, but it's going to take less time to build your mountain and climb it than it's for you to beg someone to make your life.Phil Hudson:And begging someone to make your life means you owe them and they have power over you.Michael Jamin:And it's also, but you're going to hear no so many times you're going to get so much rejection. Who needs it? Why not just put all that creative energy into what you want to achieve instead of why are you wasting your energy hitting people up on LinkedIn? What's the point of that?Phil Hudson:This is something in business I'm bad about because we've talked about it before. I own a digital marketing agency. That was my career path before I moved to LA, and I still operate that agency, and we do nothing on LinkedIn. And I was like, well, you got to be on LinkedIn. That's where the businesses are. And I was like, I get that Our business is almost purely word of mouth, and it's because I'm not out shaking my can, asking people to put money in it. We stand on the value of the work that we do, and then that's referral work that goes out to other people. And that's not the way to grow to a business that's going to end up on the New York Stock Exchange or end up something you can trade. But what it is, it's a lifestyle business that creates a way for me to do what you're doing, which is to make my art, to be creative, to live my life the way I want without having to be beholden to somebody else dictating what I do with my time and my hours. And what I'm hearing you say is it's effectively the same thing for your book is had you gone with an agent who sold your book to a big publisher, you would now be mandated to do things in a certain way and you would've lost all of the same creative control. And it almost sounds like it would spoil the whole experience for you.Michael Jamin:It's hard to say. I mean, in the beginning, that's how I thought I had to do it. And then I realized I didn't have to who it could have been a great experience. I don't know. I mean, we'll never know, but I also know it's not necessary even a little bit, not in today's world. And if I do another book, maybe I will use a publisher, maybe not. I don't know. But the point is, if I do, they're going to pay me for it. You know what I'm saying? This first one's on me. I have to prove myself. Sure. If they want in on Michael Jamin, they're going to have to pay me or else, because now the power has shifted.Phil Hudson:Yeah. I can't remember if we've ever talked about this, but this came up in conversation this week's Kevin Hart, where he worked, traveling, doing standup comedy, getting names, getting emails after shows, building a fan base. And then when he got his first big deal, they were like, all right, and then we'll need you to send this out to your email list. And he said, it's a million dollars. And they said, what? He says, you didn't work to build that list. You don't get my people and mine. I put in the blood, sweat and tears on this. You did not. You're going to pay me for that blood, sweat and tears.Michael Jamin:And what happened?Phil Hudson:They paid him everyMichael Jamin:Time they paid him. Yeah. Pay the man and a lot of this, and you've helped out as well with enormously, just in terms of the podcast and help me with marketing and all that stuff and the website. Yeah, but it's still one of these things. Build it first. This is the order in which you need to do things when you make it first and then people will join in. People will want a piece of that. They either want to help you or they'll want part of your success or whatever. It's not the other way around. It's not, Hey, help me make my dream. No one wants to help you make your dream. No one cares about your dream. You build it first and then they'll come out of the woodwork and decide whether they want a piece of you or not, because they can make some money off of it.But it's so much more empowering when you look at it that way. It's like, Hey, I have something to offer here. I have something great. I'm not even offering it. I have something great here. Do you want a piece of it or not? And the answer, they know, okay, that's fine. I will do it without you. But it's the other, you know what I'm saying? It's not like, Hey, help me make it out. Hey, help me. Then you're begging. It's the other way around. I have something great and I'm going there. I'm doing it with or without you. Up to you, you can decidePhil Hudson:It's field of dreams, right? If you build it, they will come. Yeah.Michael Jamin:You got to build it first though.Phil Hudson:You got to build it first. You have to do the crazy thing. You have the lofty idea. You got to go make the baseball field in the middle of your corn field in Nebraska orMichael Jamin:Wherever. And people say, though, I don't know how to do that. But if you are a creative person and you want to get into a creative field, writing or screenwriting, whatever, be creative, prove how creative you are, you'll figure it out.Phil Hudson:Figure it out. Yeah, go cut your teeth. I think it's this metaphor for life though, which is we have to do things that are difficult and hard and things that we don't enjoy because that's how we learn and grow and get better. And redefining failure I think was a big deal for me because failure was something I just tried to avoid at all costs, to the point that I would do nothing if I thought I wasn't going to be 100% successful. So imagine doing that, trying to be a writer when writing is rewriting, you're not going to be okay the first 10, 15 drafts or whatever. Oh, god. And so if you have this fear of failure and what is failure? So redefining what these things means is very important. And when you start looking at failure, a lot of very smart people have said that failure is just the fastest way to get to success. You just have to fail as fast as possible so that you can achieve your goal. And it's just learning what not to do. And so many quotes about that.Michael Jamin:That's one of the things. Another thing that I picked up from another musician, David Bowie, as I was trying to figure out what art is, and he said something very similar. He said, art is basically is taking something from within yourself and figuring out a way how to express it so that you can help

On October 28th, I hosted a webinar called "How To Write A Great Story," where I talked about how to come up with interesting and unique story ideas, as well as how tapping into your everyday life interactions with people can help with this. This episode addresses questions you asked in our Q&A session that we didn't have time to answer. There's lots of great info here, make sure you watch.Show NotesFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:Yeah, you better figure that out because your story needs to be about one thing everyone wants to throw in the kitchen sink. And it's about this, but it's also about this, but it also has elements of this. It's like, no, no, you don't know what your story is. You got a hot mess. You can't kitchen sink it. Your story's about one thing. And if you think it's about two things, congratulations. Now you have a sequel or you have another episode, but your story's about one thing. And if you think I'm making it up, read stories that you've enjoyed and ask yourself the same question. What is this about you're listening to? What the hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity, I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts. Hey everyone, welcome back to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? And today I am answering your questions and I'm back here with Phil. Welcome back, Phil,Phil Hudson:Good to be here. Thank you forMichael Jamin:Having me. We had a delay because I borrowed some of Phil's mic equipment for a few weeks and then I gave it back to him with the wrong card. And then Phil, you learned a lesson. The lesson is no good deed goes unpunished.Phil Hudson:Oh man, I feel like's. I'mMichael Jamin:Happy to have taught you that lesson. ThankPhil Hudson:You for teaching me that lesson. I feel like the theme of every story I've ever written is that you get screwed either way. Just so everyone knows. Sometimes high tech is low tech and we have these awesome zoom recorders and they only allow you to have a 32 megabyte SD card. And then the American way of gluttony. We bought massive SD cards for the podcast, missed an SD card somewhere. SoMichael Jamin:Here we're won't run, but we're back and we made it work. We had a little delay. And so today I have these webinars every three weeks or so where I talk to people about writing. And anyone's welcome to join. It's free, go to michaeljamn.com/webinar for the next one. And we have a rotating list of topics that I cover and they're all writing related. And so these are some of the questions I didn't have time to answer during these webinars.Phil Hudson:And you are often testing new subjects too, so if you've attended them in the past, make sure you come sign up so you can get into those.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:Alright, well, we've got several topics and as we do, I tend to group these together based on subject matter, and these are raw questions just ask during the podcast. So I apologize in advance for ruining people's names and mispronouncing everything, but let's start with craft. I think that's the thing people care a lot about is how do they get better at writing? And s sl junk indie author asks, how does the story structure fluctuate depending on genre, I should say too, this is from your podcast, how to Write a Great Story, which is one of your MyMichael Jamin:Webinar. My webinar. YourPhil Hudson:Webinar, yeah, yeah. Excuse me. Your webinar, how to Write a Great Story, which is one of your most popular webinars that we have. So if you haven't signed up for that, go do that the next time it's up. So how does the story structure fluctuate? Depending on genre, if I'm writing a horror, but I'm used to fantasy, what are some things I need to consider when structuring my story?Michael Jamin:I really don't think there's that much of a difference, to be honest. I think if you're writing a mystery that's different, and I think writing mysteries, people do it wrong all the time. Rich are a little harder to do, but you're just telling the story structure is very similar. You're telling a scary story. A horror story is just a scary story. A fantasy is just, it is a fantastical story, but they're just stories. I mean, everyone gets hung up on these genres. You get to decide the tone and the tone of your story is scary or fantastical, but it's still a story.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Something that you told me privately that I think is interesting for everybody listening, you were approached by a publisher who said, we want to make you the next Save the Cat. We want you to publish this book series, and you've never read any of those things. But for those of us who have, this is commonly taught, what are the tropes of your genre? What are the things in your genre? What is the story structure of your genre? And it's like you read between the lines and it's like what you've said many times. You're taking something apart and reassembling that and it's not the right way. You need to start with structure and then move forward. It's the same reason you do a foundation and then a frame, and then you do the rest of the house.Michael Jamin:You can paint the house any color you want, and that's whether it's scary or funny or dramatic or whatever. That's just color of paint. But the house still looks the same for the framing, still looks the same regardless of what paint you want to put on it.Phil Hudson:Awesome. Just Mason May. How does someone overcome the concern that our work won't live up to its potential?Michael Jamin:Oh, it never does. To get over it, you'll never be happy. You'll never be, oh, I should have done it. This. When you're done, you're always going to look at it and go, I wonder if this could have been better. I think any artist is going to feel that way, but if the question is how do I make sure it's good enough to even share, well, then you can just give it to your friend or your mother or whoever and have them look at it and read it. Take your name off the cover and ask them, did you enjoy reading this? When you got to the bottom of the page, did you want to turn the page or not? And if you wanted to turn the page, you did a good job. And if you didn't, something's wrong.Phil Hudson:Right. Aside from that, what would you recommend people do to overcome the fear of rejection or the fear of someone hating their work?Michael Jamin:I get over it. I mean, that's the job you're signing up for this. Hopefully no one's going to be too mean to you, but just know that when I was starting off, I was no good. No one's good when they start off. I mean, no one starts every single artist you admire, musician, actor, writer, whatever, performer, they were not good when they started. Listen to them in interviews. They'll say as much, so you get better. The more you do, the better you get.Phil Hudson:Yeah. We watch these kids shows now that I've got small children, and one of our favorite shows is Bluey, which I've talked about before. And they just dropped a bunch of new episodes yesterday, and one of the episodes is about drawing. And the daughter bluey is not good at drawing, but the dad's not good at drawing, but the mom's really good at drawing, and then the little sister doesn't care at all. She's just a kid and she's just drawing whatever she wants. And so the dad's super conscientious, self-conscious of what he's drawing. And so bluey the protagonist becomes a little self-conscious of her drawing, and they tell the story that the dad made fun of when he was a kid. So he stopped and the mom, just, her mom incentivized her, encouraged her, you're doing great for a 7-year-old. And she was like, oh, and that was enough. And then she became a wonderful artist. So at the end, bluey and the dad are both freed up to draw the things that they got made fun of or were worried about. And it's this beautiful allegory of just, Hey, just let it go. Who cares? That person's just being a jerk and it's because they envy what you do. That'sMichael Jamin:A good lesson. That's a good lesson from that show.Phil Hudson:Yeah, it's a great show. I bet we should watch it with your kids, Michael.Michael Jamin:My kids are too old to watch TV with me now.Phil Hudson:Yeah, that's scary. It's so sad to hear that. Rachel Zoo, I would like to get my motivation for riding back and for everybody. You have this other webinar you just put out, which is about how professional writers overcome writer's block. And I think that kind of addresses this, but this was before that. But what general thoughts do you have about getting motivation back to write?Michael Jamin:Yeah, I mean, well, first of all, I can't motivate anyone. I mean, if you don't have the motivation in you, then it's not going to get done. So you have to be self-driven. But probably what you're experiencing is the fact that you just don't know how to do it. And so when you don't know how to do something or you think you're bad at it, it's not fun. Why would you want to do anything when you feel like you're horrible at it? But once you learn how to do it and story structure can be taught and it doesn't make writing easier, it makes it easier. It doesn't make it easy, but it makes it easier. So I think the problem that you're facing is you just dunno how to do it yet. So come to some of my webinars and that'll help you a lot just to learn. You're flailing. I don't blame you. It's no fun. When you're flailingPhil Hudson:For everybody who is unaware, you also give away the first lesson of your online course for free @michaeljamin.com/free. And you teach this beautiful lesson about what is story. That alone is worth its weight in gold because it's just something we all miss or forget. And you've even said you forget sometimes.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I mean, I was watching a movie that I got a screener the other, and I'm getting halfway through, I go, there's no story here. I'm bored. And now my wife was bored by it too, but she didn't know why. I knew why because I'm a writer. I'm like, what's the story you're telling? No one knew. And yet the movie got made. I dunno, I got to tell you.Phil Hudson:Yeah. The other thing that comes to mind is many people have heard this guy, and you've heard me talk about him before, this guy, Jocko Willink, former Navy Seal leadership consultant, multiple New York Times bestsellers, a huge podcast, and he has this motto that says, discipline equals freedom. And he's like, it's a little bit counterintuitive because you think if you're disciplined, then you don't have choice and you can't do things. And his point is, if you are disciplined, you don't have to rely on motivation. And that's what I hear from you and I've heard from other professional writers is being a professional is doing it When you don't feel like it, motivation doesn't matter.Michael Jamin:You know what? I'll tell you as well, I post every day on TikTok or at least five or six days a week. I find, and I've talked to other creators who feel the same way. If I take too many days off, it gets harder to get back on. So two is the max, and you got to, because I know people think it's easy to, it's not easy posting on social media. It's like I got to think about what I'm going to say. I got to rehearse it, I got to shoot it, then I got to tag it, upload it, make all the meta tags. I don't do it in two seconds. And yeah, it's like brushing your teeth. You have to do it,Phil Hudson:And that's like any habit they say you can mess up once, don't mess up twice. It's like dieting, don't make two bad choices. If you made one, that's okay. Now continue to get back on track, but it's discipline, discipline, discipline. You just need to sit down and do the work because that is what is required. And if you're not willing to do that, this is not the career for you. It might be fun for you to do on your own, but even then I imagine that's going to be pretty brutal if you don't have the discipline and the habit of just sitting down and doingMichael Jamin:It. Oh, even if it's a hobby, it'll still be more fun if you know how to do it. I mean, golf is a hobby for most people. The better you get, the more fun it is to play.Phil Hudson:Yeah, I don't like being bad at things. That's very true. Great. Stephanie Anthony, what are daily writing exercise exercises that are invaluable to helping to build stronger storytelling muscles?Michael Jamin:Well, I don't do exercises, but would certainly have. Keeping a journal or a diary and writing it, knowing that no one will read it is very freeing. When I was in high school, I wrote, I had a creative writing class and our assignment was to write daily entries in this journal and we gave it to him at the end of every class and then he would read it and he was always so kind. He always said such nice things about what I wrote. He was looking forward to reading it. I thought that was really nice of him to do. I'm sure it wasn't very good, but I was trying to entertain him and he appreciated it. Yeah, just write and read how those are your exercises. Write and read.Phil Hudson:I've talked before about some of my experiences translating for the Sundance Labs and some of the things I got to do with the scholarship I had through Robert Redford and this woman Joan, who runs these workshops at the labs for whether you're a writer, a director, whether you're doing editing, whatever it is, everyone goes through this basic storytelling lab with her, these workshops almost every day. And it's about taking, basically it's what you talk about in your course, mining your life for stories. And I remember that one time I went and she saw me and she recognized me from doing this Redford scholarship stuff, and she was like, it's so good to see you here. And I told her what I was doing and she was introducing everybody in the room and I introduced myself and she was kind enough to say, and Phil is a very talented writer, and I made the mistake of saying, well, that's why I'm here translating. And I've been thinking about that literally today as doing the work and practicing and getting better and then getting acknowledgement from other people is important. The practice of doing it every single day is the exercise. And then I think the other exercise is accepting people's praise when it's earned and deserved.Michael Jamin:Take the compliment because you know why it's insulting not to. It insults the person, not if you shit on it, then they gave you a giftPhil Hudson:And I did.Michael Jamin:I see people do it all the time. You're not the only one. It's normal. You also feel like, well, I'm not good enough.Phil Hudson:My thought was like, well, I'm not in the labs, so I'm here translating, but I did it in front of people and I did apologize to her after, and she was very kind and we had a good chat about it, but that was ringing in my head today.Michael Jamin:It's hard to take a compliment for a lot, a lot of time I feel the same way. I feel the same way,Phil Hudson:But if you say no or you shoot it down, then it's all going to be harder because you're reinforcing unconsciously that you are not good or it isn't good enoughMichael Jamin:AndPhil Hudson:You got to take the wins. Take the wins.Michael Jamin:Yeah, right.Phil Hudson:Awesome. A couple of questions related to the topic, and you're online screenwriting course, so they're kind of bundled together, Joel Riedel regarding execution of an idea in a script. How do you know when you've taken a script far enough? In other words, how do you know if it's ready?Michael Jamin:Well, kind of the same. I kind of touched on this earlier, but basically give it to someone and take the title sheet off. If so, they don't know you wrote it and then give 'em a week or so to read it. And if they get to page 20 and they ask, they're going to say, what do I know? I'm not a Hollywood director. How do I know if your script is any good? You say, well, no. When you get to 20, do you want to read more? Does it feel like I gave you a gift or a homework assignment? That's it. You don't even, because your reader is your audience, they don't have to be a Hollywood insider to know whether they like something or not. Do they want to turn the page or not? And if they do, it's good. If it's not, if they don't, that's a problem.Phil Hudson:Yeah, there's levels of that too, because I've written things that I've given to friends and they said this was great and then given 'em to you and you've given me good praise, but solid feedback and things that I could improve, and it's the quality of the feedback is also important, but what I'm hearing you say is regardless of that, if you have a show on tv, whoever's going to sit down and invest their time to watch your story, they need to all understand there's a story here and it's worth the hour of my time, the 27 minutes of my time, whatever it is that they're doing.Michael Jamin:Yeah, because no one's obligated to watch your show. They'll turn the channel now. So that's how you judge things.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Are you ever at a point when you write things where you feel you've done enough, I'm happy with that one, that one's good to go, or is it always like, I can make that better. I just got to turn it in?Michael Jamin:Yeah, I always feel that way. Even with my book coming out, I always feel like I could have done that a little differently, but it's like, no, you got to let it go. You got to let, but I saw an interview with Frank Geary and he was looking at, I think it was 60 minutes, and he was staring at the Disney Concert Hall, which he designed, and he's a fantastic architect. I think he was with Leslie Stall, and they're admiring his work and she goes, when you see this building and it is one of the most beautiful buildings in la, yeah, it'sPhil Hudson:Great. It's gorgeous. If you guys have seen Iron Man, I want to say Iron Man one, they go to it,Michael Jamin:They do. It's very sculptural. It looks like a piece of sculpture, and she said, when you look at this building, what do you see? He goes, I see all the things I would do differently now, and he's a master, so you just never get past that stage,Phil Hudson:But that's not the job of a pro, which is what you teach. The job of a professional is you do the work, you turn it in, you move on.Michael Jamin:Yeah, you move on to something else and make the next one better if you can.Phil Hudson:Well, you always do the best you can with the time you have. Is that accurate to say?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah, for sure. That's definitely what with tv, we got to turn on an episode of TV and at the end of the week, so we do the best we can.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Awesome. Camika Hartford in creating a story with structure in mind first, is it ever useful to organically write or figure it out, then go back and pick out the pieces you want to create a solid narrative, or is that just wasted time? This is in regards to Greta Gerwig process. That's a little bit different than most people. That'sMichael Jamin:A great question, and if you were writing a movie on your own time, sure, you can write it. You don't have time to schedule. You could take four years to write your movie, and if you want to discover it organically and if you understand how to do that, if you understand what that means, it means you have to write and write and then you figure out what the story is. Then once you finally find the story, you can go back and rewrite all the other stuff that's not the story and then fix it. But you still have to understand what story structure is to know what you're fixing. If you were to on a TV show though, you don't have that luxury. You're on staff with a bunch of other writers in a room, and before one word is written, you break the story on the whiteboard and then you outline it. Just don't discovering the story. Everyone agrees on what the story is in the writer's room, so it's a very different process. One is more organic, the other is definitely more efficient.Phil Hudson:You said everyone agrees, and I've been in the room, or I've seen people not agree with the showrunner.Michael Jamin:When I say everyone agrees, I mean the showrunner agrees. Yeah,Phil Hudson:So just for a point of clarification for people, it is not your job to approve every decision in a writer's room, but like you said, when you're writing something for yourself, you have the luxury of doing that. So yeah, fascinating question and answer. Thank you, cam. Gleb, Lin, how can I bring my vision to life through a screenplay?Michael Jamin:How can I bring my vision to life? I'm not really sure. Are they asking how do I sell it orPhil Hudson:How do I think? What I'm hearing from this question based on the topic is, alright, so I've got this vision for what I want my story to be, and I've chosen screenplay as my medium. How do I get what's in my head on the pageMichael Jamin:And justice?Phil Hudson:You knowMichael Jamin:What? I saw this short by Wes Anderson last night, God, I can't remember what it was called, damnit, I don't remember what it was called. It was with Ray Fines and Ben Kingsley. It was a half hour long and it was typical Wes Anderson only, it wasn't shot like a movie, it was shot like a stage play, and so the character would talk and behind the character, the sets would move and would fly in this different set. Then he'd pretend to walk and then he'd be in a different set, and it was wonderful to watch. It was so creative, but on paper, it's the most boring thing in the world. There's no magic on paper. You have to see it. So if that's what you want to do, you're going to have to just build that yourself. You're going to have to got a phone, you got a camera, you got friends, make it yourself and don't spend a lot of money. Whatever you think it's going to cost, I guarantee you I can shoot it for much less because it's not about the money. It's always about the words and the more creative you are. I did a bunch of commercials that I wrote for,Phil Hudson:It's just about to talk about, wereMichael Jamin:You going to say that?Phil Hudson:I was, yeah.Michael Jamin:For Twirly Girl, my wife had a company called Twirly Girl, and we shot all these commercials and I wrote and produced them and I hired a bunch of high school kids to shoot it as my crew and the sets, I built the sets out of cardboard, literally I got cardboard boxes and I built everything. And the fact that it was made out of a cardboard made it funnier. It made it silly,Phil Hudson:But tonally on point too because it's a children's clothing line, right? Yeah.Michael Jamin:But it was magical, but it had the same, Wes Anderson has that same kind of magical thing about him. It doesn't exist so cool about it.Phil Hudson:For those of you who haven't seen them, are those published anywhere? Are they on Twirly Girl YouTube? I know we have in your Vimeo account. I've seen them.Michael Jamin:I know there, I mean, I think you could see some of them. If you go to twirly girl shop.com,Phil Hudson:Would you ever want those published on your site just as examples?Michael Jamin:We can do that. Do you think someone is interested? We should put some there.Phil Hudson:Why don't you guys, if you guys are listening to this, just go comment on Instagram and just put hashtag twirly girl in the comments, and so we know if you guys want to see 'em, we can load 'em up on your side. Yeah,Michael Jamin:We can make a page for that, but it's probably a good idea, Phil. I think it should be inspiring. Each of those commercials, they're about three to five minutes long, whatever. Maybe they're five minutes, but I cut 'em down to three and each one costs, the first one I think was 1200 bucks. You can do it cheap. You can do it cheap.Phil Hudson:My business partner Rich, he was one of my professors in film school, actually he's teaching at Grand Canyon University in Arizona. He's teaching film right now. And so for the final project last semester, he had them shoot a video, basically that kind of commercial for pickleball brand. And the thing looks incredible. There's amazing camera, there's crane movement, there's drones, it looks good, and $128.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Oh, that's great. That's great.Phil Hudson:Yeah, it looks like it was 10 grand. Now there's, it got to perform as an ad. I dunno, but the quality was definitely there and what I'm getting to is when you talk about getting your vision to life, it is the job of the writer. It is the job of the writer to get the vision on the page so that anyone who reads it can see that vision. But it is the director's job to take that and work with the art department and everyone else to expand it. Or in tv, the writer is typically the showrunner. That showrunner has that same capacity to get the vision made beyond doing it yourself. I think the other piece of advice that I might give would be you need to understand your craft. You need to understand what a screenplay looks like, and your formatting and your own style and tone are going to influence your ability to do that on the page. If you're not going to produce your own stuff, and I don't mean that to counter what or contrast with what you're saying, it's just the person who's not going to go shoot those things. If you're just talking about it from a writer's perspective, you got to have your story there. The structure has to be sound, and then you need to be able to use the words and the style and format of screenwriting to get the job done to convey that vision.Michael Jamin:And as you were talking, I forgot to tell you this morning on TikTok, someone tagged me and they said they're in law school and that they're taking an entertainment law class and their professor assigned them to watch my channel.Phil Hudson:That's awesome. Why?Michael Jamin:I don't know why. What a weird homework assignment.Phil Hudson:Love it. Love it. Maybe he's going to just call out all the things that you could be sued for. Yeah, maybe. That's wild, man. The world's shifted in the Michael Jamin sphere over here. You got Michael's got his own Wikipedia page too. Yeah,Michael Jamin:I'm on Kpia. Yeah,Phil Hudson:A couple of years ago you would've never wanted any of this attention, right?Michael Jamin:No, I still struggle with it a little bit. I still strugglePhil Hudson:Just highlighting that for everybody here who's struggling to put their stuff out there, what a lot of these questions are about, you wanted to do something, just publish this book and you said, what do I need to make that happen? It's been over two years in that process. And your book will be coming out pretty soon.Michael Jamin:Yeah, we'll do a special episode on that. But yeah, when I'm yelling at you guys to build the damn mountain to build it yourself, I just want you to know everything I recommend, either I have done or I'm currently doing, so I'm not talking out of my ass. SoPhil Hudson:Zero hypocrisy here with the recommendations and I will defend you on that because I see it happening. Yeah. Alright. Sucks to suck has a question. Great. Great. Username story build finding, planning the path of the characters. This is a statement, it's not a question, but when you're story building, how do you find or plan the path for your characters? What are their arcs?Michael Jamin:Yeah, I mean, that's something I teach in my course, my screenwriting course. Come sign up michael jammin.com/course, but that's not a 32nd answer. That's a 14 hour course. So yeah, come to my webinars. I did a webinar a couple weeks ago where I literally gave away part of the course. Not a lot of it, just a small part of it.Phil Hudson:I was surprised. It's a lot though. It's a lot of nuggets in there of,Michael Jamin:Yeah, there's a lot of good stuff in that. I was like, I kind of felt like, guys, if you don't hit the whole thing, you're missing out because this is pretty good stuff.Phil Hudson:What was that? How professional writers create great characters? Is thatMichael Jamin:What it meant? No, it was, I don't know. It was not. It might've been getting past writer's block or what was the onePhil Hudson:After that? Both of those are pretty good, and I think you've given a lot of new context and a lot of context in there for that. I think it was a great characters was one specifically on this subject, and you talk about this, I don't want to spoil it for people who are going to miss it, but you talk about the principle of how to put the right character in a story and it is worth watching. I don't want to steal the opportunity for you to learn that lesson by listening to Michael.Michael Jamin:Come to my talk on characters that it'll help you a lot and it's free.Phil Hudson:Awesome. Sammy Cisneros, how strict should we follow conventional story structure?Michael Jamin:I would say don't break the rules until you understand them. So I would say very strict, and just so you know, I don't break the rules and I've been doing it for a long time. If it ain't broke, why fix it? Honestly, once you're in that story structure, there's still so much creative freedom that you can have once you understand, it's not like I don't feel handcuffed when I'm writing a story that way. I feel liberated. I understand how to do it. There's the roadmap that'll help.Phil Hudson:You discussed this principle of Picasso in your free lesson, which I think everyone should go pick up or rewatch if you've signed up for it in the past, but you talk about what it means to become a master and it's visually apparent when you look at the way you display that in that lesson.Michael Jamin:Yeah, go watch. Yeah, that was in the free lesson,Phil Hudson:Michael jamon.com/free.Michael Jamin:Yeah, go watch that. That'll help.Phil Hudson:Great. Leoni Bennett, when breaking a story, do you keep track of both plot and story?Michael Jamin:Yeah, it's all yes, all yes. And if you don't know what that means, there's a difference between plot and story, and I talk about this in I think the free lesson, but yeah, you have to keep both in mind. You don't do one without the other. It's the same time. You can have a plot if you have a good plot, but no story. You got nothing. If you've got a good story but no plot, you also have nothing. So you need both.Phil Hudson:Yeah, I think lesson two in the course is heavily dedicated to this, and you do touch on it on the free one, but second year in the course and you get to lesson two, it's like, oh, okay, this makes a lot more sense. And I've always said this since we started the podcast and doing this stuff together. You're the only writer I know online who talks about story and not plot everyone else's. What are your plot points? What is this plot? What is this beat? How does this beat build to this? What is your inciting incident to this thing? To crossing the threshold to the Boone? And they're mixing all this jargon from all of it's youngian, it's Joseph Campbell. It's like all this stuff. It's very hard to even wrap your head around. And I'm egotistically. I consider myself to be a pretty intelligent person who's capable of learning. And very often when I started studying screenwriting, I was just beating my head against the wall because it's like I don't even understand what subtext is, and you're telling me to use it, but no one's teaching how to use subtext, which you talk about, but it's that. Yeah, it's the story. It's story, story, story. And then the plot is, to me, it is the painting of the story. It's what makes the story matter.Michael Jamin:Well, I watched a movie the other day and there was plenty of plot. Things were moving along, things were clipping, things were happening, but the whole time I'm like, so what? Who cares? Why do I, this is so who cares? And so the story is really the who cares part. Why shouldPhil Hudson:Write that down? WriteMichael Jamin:That down. Yeah, write that down. It's the who cares. It's what to me as the viewer or the listener or the reader, it's all the same. Why do I care what happens to the main character? And if you don't, I won't say it on camera, I won't say which one it was, but it was a big movie, big budget, big director who's done some great stuff. You shouldPhil Hudson:Just text me so I know what itMichael Jamin:Is. I'll tell you later, but I was like, who cares? Why do I care about any of this?Phil Hudson:Yeah. Dave Crossman, who is pretty active in the course we've talked about before. He has said that I have a coined phrase now when I read someone's script. It's a lot of things happen, a lot of people doing things and nothing's happening.Michael Jamin:Okay, yeah,Phil Hudson:That's good. Lots of stuff. JustMichael Jamin:Plot is so boring.Phil Hudson:Cool. Yeah. Alright. David Campbell, how do we determine which contestants, which content to reveal in what order?Michael Jamin:Oh yeah. I have a whole analogy that I go through in one of my free webinars about the order in which you unpack the details of your story is really important, and that's what I teach in the course. But for sure, yeah, a lot of times you'll read new writers and they just do a dump. They just dump everything out. But that's not how you tell a story. The story is like you as the author, you get to decide when your reader learns this, and that's how you keep people turning the page.Phil Hudson:Yeah. I have bought a lot of self-published books from friends and people I went to film school with and some are good and some are like, wow, what you just put in a chapter could have been a whole book and you ended this chapter in a place that makes zero sense. And it's because of the way they're laying out the story. They have so much they want to say they're just rushing through it or they have so little they want to say it's dragging on. And to me, I think that's what we're talking about, story structure. If you understand structure, then the artistic way you unfold that sort of unravel that story is your craft and your voice and that the person who comes to mind for me is Guy Richie. I think Guy Richie does that masterfully in his stories.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I'm working on a story right now, which I'm writing, and there's one of two ways I want to write it. And so I'm not sure which way I'm supposed to do it, but I'll choose one and I'll go down that path and if I find it halfway through, it doesn't work, I'll go back and do the other way.Phil Hudson:So you're saying you're not married to the words you wrote. They're not precious written in stone and can never be changed.Michael Jamin:No. It's all about, yeah, exactly. I've tossed out so many stories that weren't working, but I am always thinking about what's the best way to compel the reader to turn the page.Phil Hudson:High level note there, guys, write that one down too. WriteMichael Jamin:It down.Phil Hudson:Paul Gomez, seven 90 Should a story center around subject or a character, is there a different approach for each? What I'm hearing with this question is should I focus on theme or character when I write my story?Michael Jamin:Honestly, I think you focus on a character and then theme comes a little bit later, but I've seen some movies, the very interesting setting, very interesting subject matter, very interesting. But because I don't care about what the character wants and I'm not invested in the character, I was very unsatisfied with the movie, even though the subject matter was really interesting.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Previous podcast episode we've done, we talked about basically picking a word. There's a word that's going to color my story then to me is theme. What is the theme of this that might help shape the character that I'm telling to convey that theme, but the character has to matter or it doesn't matter what the theme is.Michael Jamin:Yeah. When my partner and I are writing, often we pretend there's a drinking game. That theme will keep on appearing, and often you'll see a word recurring

On this week's episode, I have TikTok Star Mackenzie Barmen. We talk about what she has already accomplished in her very short time in LA, as well as some of the projects she has planned for the future. There is so much more so make sure you tune in.Show NotesMackenzie Barmen on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mackenziebarmen/Mackenzie Barmen on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@mackenziebarmen?lang=enMackenzie Barmen on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAP_cFPc2fqGTe50YhOlkDg/videosMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptMackenzie Barman:There's a part of me that worries on some level all the time, but then there's a stronger part of me. I think that's pretty delusional in a good way, that I'm like, no, I am certain that I'm supposed to do this, and I just can't falter. I just, I'm doing,Michael Jamin:You're listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity. I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts.Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Well, I'll tell you what I've been talking about. If you've been listening to any number of my podcasts or by social media, I've been saying the same thing a lot. I've been saying, if you are an aspiring whatever, if you're an actor or a writer or performer, put your work out there. Just start doing it, and the more you do it, the better you get. And then my next guest is someone who did just that and is doing that, and I discovered her maybe a year or two ago, and we're going to talk, and she's big. We're going to talk to her about her journey here. Mackenzie Barman, thank you so much for coming here. Lemme tell you when I first found you, and then you'll Yes, please. Then we'll tell you were doing a bit, it was a piece on you were reciting nursery rhymes, and you playing two characters.You generally will talk about this, but you generally do two characters have, and you're both, and usually it's kind of a sweet and naive version of you. And then there's kind of a meaner more, not sinister, but cynical. And I guess she puts you in your place. She's a little, and she wants up making you cry a lot. And so the sweet one was talking about nursery rhyme, and the other one was telling you, you're so naive, you have no idea what these nursery rhymes are about. And so that blew up and that's how I found you, and it was really funny. I loveMackenzie Barman:It. Thank you.Michael Jamin:Well, tell me, what is this? So you're huge on TikTok, you have almost 3 million followers, which isMackenzie Barman:AlmostMichael Jamin:Huge. I've written for shows that haven't been seen by anywhere near 3 million people. So you have a giant following, but tell me, so why did you start doing this?Mackenzie Barman:Well, I was an actor in the pandemic, and I didn't really know what to do with myself. And so everyone was on TikTok for fun. That was when TikTok was really blowing up, and I kind of just decided to start making videos and then not taking it seriously at all. But then I was like, well, it gives me a kind of a platform. And no one was really using it like that yet. But I started to see some sketches pop up and I was like, huh, or viral videos, whatever. And then I ended up just at random seeing somebody write about a nursery rhyme in a Facebook status. And I was still using Facebook, which I don't, and I was like, oh. And I learned in that moment what that nursery rhyme meant. So I just on a whim made that firstMichael Jamin:Video. So that was one of your first videos?Mackenzie Barman:Yeah, it was one. I did a whole series of those ones. So I did it and I just kind of improvised it. And the next morning I woke up and it had gone kind of viral, and so I made another one, and then I made another one and they kind of just blew up. And so, yeah, it was kind of random.Michael Jamin:But your intention, it was boredom or was it, you said you wanted to have a platform. What was your goal?Mackenzie Barman:Well, it was a little bit out of boredom, but it was more so like, well, let me put myself out there. And I used to go to a lot of casting director workshops and when I lived in New York City, and they would always say the same thing when YouTube was really big, make your own web series, put yourself out there, all that stuff. And so that's always been in the back of my mind, and I've always kind of considered myself a multihyphenate. I also shoot and direct and all that stuff, so I was like, I need to do that. So that's why I've always kind of focused on acting, being the primary thing in my videos. Let's get to that.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I was going to say, it's really smart. You show a range. I mean, you have, like I said, the sweet side, and then the other side is, and sometimes you play well, you're always playing characters, but to me it's smart. You're showing your range as an actor.Mackenzie Barman:Yeah.Michael Jamin:What do your reps have to say about all this?Mackenzie Barman:They love it. I actually got my managers through TikTok, they found me and oh myMichael Jamin:God, really?Mackenzie Barman:I had already had voiceover representation through my agency, but I didn't have a manager or anything. And I met my manager, Rachel. I loved her right away. And they love it, and they love the content and that it's acting first and the series and all that.Michael Jamin:So they give you any feedback or No, they just like, we love it.Mackenzie Barman:No, not really. They just let me roll with it. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Interesting. And then what other opportunities have come from all this?Mackenzie Barman:Gosh, well, one of the coolest things is the relationships that I've built with other creators, especially actor creators. And you just kind of know when you vibe with some people or when I watch certain people, I'm like, I know our brains work the same way. So I seek those people out to become, I love getting to know the people that I admire. It's cool to meet people talent first, and then it's doing a play with somebody. IMichael Jamin:Know you collaborate with people sometimes. I've seen some of those videos you've done.Mackenzie Barman:I've done a couple. I'm going to be doing more now that I'm in LA and with a lot more people. But that's been a really cool thing that's come from this. DidMichael Jamin:You start this in New York your first three years? Yeah. Oh, really?Mackenzie Barman:Okay. Yeah, I just moved to LA a few weeks ago. I was in New YorkMichael Jamin:City. Oh, when you said you changed your apartments, I assumed you were moved, okay. From in la, but you're Oh, you're, well, welcome to la. Okay. Thank you. Wow, this is a big adjustment for you. So what prompted you to move to LA then?Mackenzie Barman:Well, my managers are out here, and since TikTok, I've really, it's funny. I was always kind of like, I wanted to really be such a chameleon and not hone in on any one thing. I didn't want to just do comedy. I didn't want to just do drama. But now with TikTok, it's really pushed me more into comedy, and I've found that I really do love it. So out here, there's so many comedy opportunities, and I'm going to be doing part of a live show on December 10th, and just being, I just needed to be out here.Michael Jamin:Okay. So how did you get, you've only been here for three minutes, so how did you get this live show already?Mackenzie Barman:Through a friend of mine, actually, through social media. Someone you, ohMichael Jamin:My God, so smart. I'm always yelling at people. They're like, do I have to be in la? I'm like, well, this is where everyone is. I mean, why would you know? What were you doing? Were you doing a lot of theater in New York?Mackenzie Barman:Yeah, so I did a lot of regional theater. I did an off-Broadway musical, and then when the pandemic happened, I was really trying to shift into more TV and film work. I really wanted to be on tv. I still do. That's really my big focus is to be on tv, be in movies. But I was kind of transitioning and doing the casting director workshops and doing all those things, and then the pandemic hit. But yeah, mostly theater. I'm a theater girlMichael Jamin:Now. Did you study, where have you studied? Did you study in college? Where did, yeah,Mackenzie Barman:I went to a SUNY school and I loved it. I went to SUNY Potsdam in upstate New York, and I studied theater and theater education. I didn't really start doing plays until high school and in high school. SoMichael Jamin:You're from New York?Mackenzie Barman:Yeah, I'm from New York. FromMichael Jamin:New York, okay.Mackenzie Barman:Yeah, born and raised, upstate New York, near Albany. And then, yeah, I moved down to the city to be an actor and do all that. Right.Michael Jamin:Wow. You've only been here three weeks and so much has already happened for you already.Mackenzie Barman:What do you think? Yeah, I'm trying.Michael Jamin:What do you think It's a culture shock. What do you think?Mackenzie Barman:Right now, I'm in my lust for life extrovert phase where I'm like, because a homebody pretty much, I'm an extroverted homebody, so I like to be home a lot. But right now I'm just trying to be out a lot, meet people that I've, and just kind of be really social,Michael Jamin:Been amazing. How did you get into play? Okay, you moved here. Did you stay with a friend when you found your, how did, because I'm telling people come out. How did you do it? How didMackenzie Barman:It was a pain? So I visited last August, and I stayed with one of my managers. Actually, I crashed at her place. I went a couple different places, but she's the best. I love her. And they're in the West Hollywood area, so it's really the only place I know. So that's where I am now. I'm in West Hollywood. And then I looked at a couple apartments when I was here, but I really didn't know where I was. I kind of did, but I don't really know. And then, so I just, Zillow and Trulia, and I ended up finding this apartment on Trulia, and I had a couple of friends come look at it and FaceTime me,Michael Jamin:And it was good enough.Mackenzie Barman:I was like,Michael Jamin:And then Did you drive here? YouMackenzie Barman:Flew here? I drove,Michael Jamin:Yeah. That's how you do it. Did your car. Wow. Now tell me, when you start posting, these are thought out, these videos you make, how much time do you spend a day making, and how many times do you post a day?Mackenzie Barman:It's really funny. I usually post once a day at most. I really should try to post once a day at least. It's usually every two or three days. Oh, really? Yeah. But I've been kind of busy, but it was once a day when I was doing the nursery rhymes, but I kind of got a little burned out, I think.Michael Jamin:Yeah, you do get burned out. It'sMackenzie Barman:A lot. It's a lot. It's a lot. Yeah. But I don't write anything beforehand. I improvise everything, but I kind of write it in my head as I go, and I have a loose idea going into it of if it was a nursery rhyme or something, I would have to research and have the facts ready. I would do that research beforehand and then kind of reference it as I improvised it. But for the character stuff, it's all kind of, they kind of just take over. I take a backseat,Michael Jamin:But you must edit some stuff out, or no, is everything what you say goes in?Mackenzie Barman:Sometimes if I say something and then I'm like, even if it's improvised, I'm like, huh, you know what? I think I want to tweak that and put the intonation somewhere else, or put a micro look or an eyebrow raise kind of somewhere else. I'll redo it. But most of the time it's my first take, honestly.Michael Jamin:So, okay. I was going to ask you where you're editing it because you're like this, you're holding it, and you do your one line, and then you turn around and do the other line, and thenMackenzie Barman:I swap. Yeah.Michael Jamin:So you're not even editing it?Mackenzie Barman:No, because I shoot in the app, unless it's Snapchat filters, which a couple of my characters are Snapchat filters, in which case I'll film them. It used to be that if I was doing the Snapchat filters, I would just shoot one character as a monologue and then post that. But then with my Danny and Bab series, this new, these characters, I haveMichael Jamin:The ugly babies that you post.Mackenzie Barman:They're adults. Okay. I just, I'll pull up his filter, shoot his line, save the video, switch the filter, do her response.Michael Jamin:I'm surprised you can't even remember what you just said. You know what I'm saying? With the last character just said,Mackenzie Barman:Yeah, I don't know. It's just kind of alive in that moment. ButMichael Jamin:Are you thinking in advance, okay, this is going to do well, or this is just what I want to do today? Do you care?Mackenzie Barman:I do care only because I kind of have to care. I feel like it influences so much. Now your numbers and all that stuff, but I also care because I want people to like it. I want people to genuinely have a response to it that's a little deeper maybe than normal. On TikTok scrolling, which I do get a lot. I'll get people being like, wait, this is actually, so peopleMichael Jamin:Are, well, your fans really loved you. I've read some of these comments, and what surprises me is that you interact with pretty much everyone.Mackenzie Barman:I try. I try and they're smart. Okay.Michael Jamin:Why do you try?Mackenzie Barman:Because it, it's weird. It's like this weird, I don't really ever go to anyone's profile or whatever, but I can almost hear the comment in my head, and it almost in that brief moment feels like a conversation's actively happening. So I'm bantering with this person, or I don't know. It's just, it's fun to be engaging. And I've had people respond when I do engage and they're like, oh my God, I can't believe you applied. And that to me is just so lovely.Michael Jamin:It is lovely, but it's so much work on your part.Mackenzie Barman:I know, but I sit and scroll a lot. So it's like part of the package. It's like part of producing the video almost is then the engagement after. And I don't do it as much as I used to, but I do. It depends on what mood I'm in.Michael Jamin:I wonder though. I wonder what you're supposed to do when I started, are you supposed to, I'm not even sure when I get, my page is very different from yours. They have questions for me. They want, as opposed to you. I think they're like your fans, they just want to, and so they'reMackenzie Barman:Just making a commentary on itMichael Jamin:Or something. Well, they really like your show. They like what? You're the fans. And so I just don't know what the rules are. I don't know if you're supposed toMackenzie Barman:Interact yourself. I dunno. And it depends. If somebody does leave a nasty comment or say something mean, which is oddly really rare, don't come from me guys. Don't start. But it's rare. They're pretty good, my, because some people get it bad for some reason, and I don't really get that.Michael Jamin:Yeah, go on. What do you do?Mackenzie Barman:Wait, I've lost my train of thought. WhatMichael Jamin:Was it? You said? Some people come after you and they're mean,Mackenzie Barman:And either I'll completely ignore them or I'll delete it. If it's a needle in a haystack and it's just something mean, I'll delete it. But sometimes I'll respond with sarcasm or I'll make a sarcastic response video, and then it makes it funny. So then it's like, oh, this is actually a joyful experience. But most of the time I'll just ignore them if I do get them.Michael Jamin:And you don't block 'em, you just ignore them?Mackenzie Barman:Yeah. I don't really block anybody unless they're trying to impersonate me, butMichael Jamin:Even, yeah. Wow. You don't even block the haters.Mackenzie Barman:Not usually. There's been maybe two or three.Michael Jamin:Oh, wow. I get more than you do I get more than haters than you?Mackenzie Barman:They don't really come for me. It's weird. I don't know.Michael Jamin:Wow. But now you're putting yourself out there. It's pretty vulnerable. I mean, it may hit, it may not. It may be funny. It may not be. I mean, was that hard at the beginning for you to do that?Mackenzie Barman:Yeah, I think the nursery rhyme videos did so well. Those were just one of those weird viral things where every video was getting a million plus and it was every day. It was just crazy. And now it ebbs and flows so much with TikTok. And now I have more normal numbers, I think. But I definitely do get a little anxious about that. Sometimes I'm like, oh gosh, I thought this video would do better. Or I'll post something out of my norm and then I wake up and it's done really well, and I'm like, oh, and then I'll try to do that again, and then it doesn't do as well. So it's like a flash in the pan thing.Michael Jamin:Do you share it as well on Instagram? I mean, what do youMackenzie Barman:I do, yeah. Yeah,Michael Jamin:Immediately. Same content. You just put it up there.Mackenzie Barman:Yeah.Michael Jamin:Do you put it anywhere else?Mackenzie Barman:Not really. I've put a couple on YouTube. I really need to start utilizing the YouTube shorts because I think where it's at and Snapchat, I need to start utilizing more. I think they're up and coming. They're coming back. You thinkMichael Jamin:So?Mackenzie Barman:They're coming back? I think so.Michael Jamin:How many hours a day or minutes a day do you spend on this?Mackenzie Barman:I would say on average, I probably spend an hour on a video.Michael Jamin:Really? Okay. It's not nothing. It's not nothing.Mackenzie Barman:Yeah. It's not nothing. But it's not like I know some people put in and you can tell some of these videos are gorgeous and the editing is, but since it's just me, it's also a lot harder for me to film outside of my hand, setting up the tripod moving and just a lot more to do. So it's just easier for me toMichael Jamin:Do. Do you have a list of ideas that you keep? And are you running out of ideas?Mackenzie Barman:I always feel like I'm running out of ideas. I always think if a video, especially if a video does really well, I'm like, I'm never going to do this well ever again. But I don't usually keep a list of ideas. Sometimes I'll jot down, I have a bunch of notes, like separate note app ideas. But a lot of the times it's just, if I have the thought, I'll just record it. That's why a lot of the times I look kind of like shit in my videos a little bit, because I film them. Usually my ideas come right in the morning, and so I'll just wake up and film an idea, and then it's, before I've even brushed my teeth or anything, I'm just gross. But it's when, and I just do it.Michael Jamin:And you put it up. It's so interesting. I don't know. Is there a fear? Is there any fear associated? It seems like you don't have any fear at all about this.Mackenzie Barman:I feel like I do. I feel there's a constant anxiety of one. I have imposter syndrome pretty intensely.Michael Jamin:Okay. And who do you think you are? Do you, you're not, is thatMackenzie Barman:I don't come from an industry family or any kind of connections like that. So I'm always like, who am I?Michael Jamin:But they have imposter syndrome too, because their mother and father was, they're famous. So I think they have bigger imposter syndrome than you do. You'reMackenzie Barman:Self made. I'm learning that. I'm learning everyone deals. There was a great Viola Davis interview where she talked about imposter syndrome, and it was great to hear that.Michael Jamin:What did she say?Mackenzie Barman:Just that it never goes away and that she was doing, oh gosh, what was the movie she did with Denzel Washington?Michael Jamin:Oh, was it Fences?Mackenzie Barman:Fences? Yeah. I think it was about fences. And she was talking about she was playing that part and was like, who am I to do this? It may have been that, but she was just talking about that, and I was like, that's really refreshing, because I think I look through rose colored glasses at these celebs sometimes, and I'm like, oh my God. They're so confident. But we're always seeing the best take, and we're always getting, especially as you get more involved in the industry, you start to see that it's all kind of smoke and mirrors. You just have to fake it.Michael Jamin:I read an article yesterday about Brian May from Queen. He said he still has some imposter syndrome, and he's Sir Brian May, and he's like, why isn't they call me, sir?Mackenzie Barman:It's wild. Yeah, it's wild. But that there is fear there. There is that fear of the imposter syndrome of like, oh my gosh, who am I? And it's silly. It's silly. And I know that, butMichael Jamin:Are you monetizing TikTok or no? Yeah. You are? Yeah. In the creator fund?Mackenzie Barman:Yeah. So they have the creator beta program or program beta, whatever it's called. Great. IsMichael Jamin:That effective use?Mackenzie Barman:I dunno, maybe, but I don't dunno. Interesting. It's nice because you can only monetize on content over a minute, and most of my content is over a minute, so it really was a good thing for me. Yeah,Michael Jamin:You'd have to change anything.Mackenzie Barman:Yeah.Michael Jamin:But you have to have a personal account, not a business account. Right? Isn'tMackenzie Barman:That what you maybe? Yeah. I don't know. I don't know.Michael Jamin:Now, in your reps, as I was checking out some of your videos, you are, it's funny that they said this, but they like that you're in character. They like that you're acting. And I was curious, why don't you, or have you thought of, this is me today. I'm not going to act today. This is me. This is, I'm want to table my life. You're not doing that though.Mackenzie Barman:Yeah, no. I've done a couple of videos like that. I've probably done 10 or 12, maybe 20. I don't even know how many I have on my page, but where it's me doing something. But I feel like sometimes it feels like I'm always in a bit, and I don't know if that's being an actor or if it's my own neuroses, but if I am in front of a camera, it's kind of hard for me to be just me, unless I'm doing a podcast and talking to somebody. But if it's me looking at myself on video, I'm always going to be like, ha.Michael Jamin:It'sMackenzie Barman:Difficult for me sometimes. But I do think about that because there is a part of me that really wants to be more like, wait, okay, so here I am as a person. Get ready with me. As I tell you this story, I thought about doing more of those just because it is fun to do that.Michael Jamin:Right? But theMackenzie Barman:Math is always on. I don't know.Michael Jamin:That's more of a you thing. It's so interesting. I wonder, I was going to ask if you feel almost trapped in this persona that you are now?Mackenzie Barman:Yeah. Yes and no. No, probably not. I don't think so. I think I play such a variety of characters on my TikTok.Michael Jamin:Except for yourself. You play characters exceptMackenzie Barman:For you. It's never really me. Definitely the closest one to me. And I think I'm pretty split right down the middle between the dark me and the innocent me in the nursery rhyme videos. And that dynamic is, in a lot of the videos, there's always me and me and whoever else, Chelsea or whoever. But I'm definitely split right in the middle. But if I had to lean, I would definitely lean toward the happy, bubbly me. That's probably the closest to me in any of my videos.Michael Jamin:But not that you should, I'm just pointing out you're not sharing anything really personal or intimate about yourself orMackenzie Barman:No, no. In a weird way, I think that it's like, I don't know. There's a part of me that likes, there admires those celebs that you really don't know too much about Florence Pugh or Jennifer Lawrence. They give you glimpses into their life, their personal life. But there always is this level of mystique to them. And not that I'm trying to be mysterious, but I do think that it in the long run might serve me better as an actor to be more private than to be so human. I don't know. Well,Michael Jamin:It's interesting because it's also like you must know Elise Meyers, because I mean, she's big, but you're up there. I mean, you're not far behind her, and she's more, and it seems like she's doing what she wants to do, but she's more actor and she's more, I guess, personality.Mackenzie Barman:Yeah. Yeah. I love Elise, and I don't know her, but I love her because she's so just herself. She might have self-doubt, whatever. I have no idea. Imposter syndrome and stuff, but she appears and she does speak on things, her iss, and she's just so honest about it. And I do love that. I don't know. I just can't do it.Michael Jamin:Right. Well, you're being authentic or IMackenzie Barman:Can, but yeah, I don't know. It's just tricky. There is that kind of want to keep this, but who is Mackenzie thingMichael Jamin:And what surprising opportunities have come from this or partnerships or relationships or whatever.Mackenzie Barman:I'm trying to think. Besides auditions and stuff.Michael Jamin:So you've gotten direct auditions from this? IMackenzie Barman:Have.Michael Jamin:How did that work?Mackenzie Barman:Well, a lot of the times I'll go through my reps and then my reps will reach out to me, say, oh, you've been actually personally requested for this.Michael Jamin:That's a big deal.Mackenzie Barman:It really is. And I've gotten some callback. I've gotten, most of the time, if I audition for projects like that, I'll get a call back and then go whatever, and then it doesn't happen or whatever for whatever reason. But it's happened, yeah, a few times. But a lot of the time too, I don't know. I really don't know how much, because I get auditions through my agents, a normal actor would. So I don't really know on the back end of it how much they're like, oh, here's her video. I don't really know.Michael Jamin:But do your reps try to sell you like, Hey, she's got 3 million followers on, because that would be good to help sell the show when you book it or whatever.Mackenzie Barman:Oh, I think so. Yeah. I think that's definitely a leverage point. Working on treatments and stuff. There is work that I want to put out and produce and whatever, and I do think that helps and is a big aspect ofMichael Jamin:It. So is that on your resume, like your follower account on your acting resume or no?Mackenzie Barman:I don't dunno. Actually. It mightMichael Jamin:Be it. Should it be right? Shouldn't it be?Mackenzie Barman:I think in today's world, yeah, I think it probably should. It probably is. And it probably needs to be updated, actually, now that I'm thinking about it. But yeah, I think it is on there.Michael Jamin:One thing you don't do, I don't think you do, is sell merch.Mackenzie Barman:No, I did one drop and I had a bad experience.Michael Jamin:What happenedMackenzie Barman:With doing it? I think my problem is I am not a salesy person. And when I was trying to sell or advertise my merch, those videos did not do well and not a of lot of eyes saw them because the people who would typically see my content, it was so out of the realm of what their algorithm would be that it didn't pop up for 'em and it just didn't do well. And I was like, you know what? And I didn't like working with, so if I think if I did, I would just do it myself.Michael Jamin:Wait, weren't you doing print on demand? How is it?Mackenzie Barman:I had worked with a merch company. I don't even remember the name of the company actually, but I had worked with a merch company and it was just a quick drop. I think typically if it's a first time, they'll do a limited drop to see how it does and then moveMichael Jamin:On. You work with the merch company. Why don't you just go to some place that print on demand? I have five T-shirts if you want to make 'em one at a time.Mackenzie Barman:Well, it was kind of near when I was kind first starting out, and it's one of those things where you kind learn as you go approached. They had reached out and they said, Hey, we think McKenzie would be great. And they'd worked with other people. I think that's how it went down, or no, no, that's not true. I think it was my idea to make merch. And then I had, they were recommended because they had worked with some other great people and were really successful. So I think it was just my particular launch didn't do.Michael Jamin:Didn't do well.Mackenzie Barman:Yeah.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael. If you like my content and I know you do listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michae jamin.com. And now back to what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about.What about brand deals? Are you working with people with companies? Yeah.Mackenzie Barman:Yeah. I've done some brand deals, which are so fun. I want to do more of them because they're just fun. It kind of gives me a, because a lot of the times there's no guiding light in my videos. It's just what's ever in my head. So when I have a brand to work with, it's fun. I can work around that.Michael Jamin:Did you hook up onto the backend of TikTok, or, I don't even know they hook you up, or no.Mackenzie Barman:Well, I think a little bit. I'm so bad. I don't really know all the business backend things of TikTok. I've seen some ads and stuff you can apply to be a part of this ad or something, but the pay is really low sometimes, or it's like a share a revenue share system, and I just don't want to be bothered with that. So these ones, they'll come through my management or my agents and be like, really? Hey, they want to work with me. Yeah,Michael Jamin:But do you have special agents, social media agents, or No, just your acting agents?Mackenzie Barman:Yeah. At my agency, they have a department for everything. So I'm working with an agent there. Yeah. Oh,Michael Jamin:Wow. So interesting.Mackenzie Barman:Yeah, I'm still learning too. It really is a business. And you'd kind of go to theater school and you're like, okay, yeah, sure, it's a business, but then you're in the world and you're like, oh, this is a business.Michael Jamin:Alright, so is this your primary income or no?Mackenzie Barman:No, kind of. So I do a lot of things. So I also run a video production company. You do? It's very small, but it's called Real You, and it's a demo reel production company for actors. So basically, yes, I work with actors. I was an actor who had a MISHMOSHED demo reel of all these different student films, or you just wouldn't get the footage. So it was always a hassle if you didn't have stuff to put a reel together. And so I basically sit with actors, figure out their branding, their type, whatever, and then write them scenes and then film them. But professionally, I have a real camera and all that good stuff.Michael Jamin:And how do they find you? These peopleMackenzie Barman:Through my website or there's a business website and stuff. And it's funny because all of the SEO is for New York, and so I need to figure out a way to make everyone know that we're in LA now. So I do that and I do voiceover, so I do commercial and animation. Well, nothing animation yet. I audition a lot, but I'm hoping to book something soon. But a lot of commercial work and radio stuff, so I just have a lot of,Michael Jamin:But it seems very smart what you're doing. You're also working with, you're meeting actors, you're working with actors, you're making contacts, and you're getting paid for it out here. It'sMackenzie Barman:Making me a better writer, a better director, a better actor, because I also edit the scenes. Each scene is about a couple minutes long, and so I know when I'm directing them and shooting it, oh, this was helpful in the editing process, or, oh, this was actually difficult.Michael Jamin:So it's interesting though that you write stuff for them, but you don't write for yourself. You just impro yourself.Mackenzie Barman:I do write some stuff. My tiktoks, I don't write for some reason. I really should maybe try to sit and write something. I think I just write backwards when I'm doing that. But when I'm writing treatments, we're working on TV stuff, then I'll sit and write if it's because a lot of the stuff that I write is for me, but it's also for other people.Michael Jamin:Right. Yeah. It's so interesting. Like I said, I thought what you're doing was so smart because you're really showcasing your writing, you're showcasing your acting, and you're, your range, your acting range by playing all these different characters. It just seems like that's exactly what you should be doing. Yeah.Mackenzie Barman:Yeah. I'm really trying to build a brand there. And it's nice because it kind of acts like a resume or a reel. I'm like, just go watch my tiktoks and you can see, you can see what I'm all about.Michael Jamin:Wow. And what about the partnerships, the other actors that you're working with? Tell me a little bit about what that had led toMackenzie Barman:The actors that I shoot forMichael Jamin:Or that you shoot with or that you collaborate with.Mackenzie Barman:Oh, man. Well, I've only collaborated with a couple people. My friend's Taylor and James, who are content creators, and they're both actors. They're amazing. They live in la. I did a video with them, and I actually shot this morning with Laura Clary. Do you know Laura Clary? She's great. She's so funny. She's like an internet queen. And so when I'm shooting with them, I love working with other people, a theater person. So it's in my soul to have tangible people with me. But most of the time I'm alone. So when I'm working with another actor, it's just the best, especially when I'm just bantering freely with them or, because Laura, for instance, she wrote a script for us, and when I clagged with Taylor and James, we kind of improvised it, had an idea of what it was going to be. It was like a curb situation. We had the bones, but Laura wrote it, and then we kind of improvised on the fly. It was great. I loved it.Michael Jamin:And they're pretty much want what you want. They want to get more traditional acting on TV and film.Mackenzie Barman:I think so, yeah. Well, I know that some of them do. Laura's already established and stuff, but my client actors, they're all either working actors who want to update their reel or want to add a very specific, they need a detective scene, or they need this specific type of scene. They'll come to me. Some of them I've become really good friends with just because I'm like, oh, I love you.Michael Jamin:I mean, you've only been in LA three weeks. Are you going to get involved in the

On this week's episode, I have choreographer Phil Wright. We talk about the huge risk he took moving out to Los Angeles from a successful career in Miami. He dives into some of the famous people he has worked with as well as what his most viral video is. There is so much more so make sure you tune in.Show NotesPhil Wright on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/phil_wright_/Phil Wright on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@philwright_Phil Wright on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@PhilWrightMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptPhil Wright:And it's hard because we're working when we're not working, there's no punching and punch out clock withMichael Jamin:Us.Phil Wright:So it's tough. So getting the brain to relax and just actually sit down and watch a movie and not worry about camera angles, or how did he save his line to make him funny?Michael Jamin:Really?Phil Wright:I've lost, and which I'm trying to get back to. I've lost the concept of just being a consumer.Michael Jamin:You're listening to. What the hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity. I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts.Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin, another episode of, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about, guys. So as you know, I'm really into talking to creative people who've just done interesting things and have invented themselves in ways. And so ordinarily I talk to screenwriters and authors and actors and directors, people like that, but I just discovered this guy I want to introduce you to. His name is Phil Wright, and he's the first dancer choreographer I'm talking to, which I think is so, I don't know. I got a lot of questions for you. Phil. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for doing this,Phil Wright:Dude. Thank you for having me. I'm such a fan, man. You don't realize I'm such a good fan. I watch your page all the time. I'm always interested in what you're getting into. Ah,Michael Jamin:That's very kind. I'm a fan of you. I have to know doing something, which is really interesting. Not a lot of people can make a living as a dancer and even a choreographer that's even fewer people. And yet this is, so where did this all begin then?Phil Wright:Okay, so originally from Miami, Florida. I moved to LA about 10 years ago. I had stepped into the dance world accidentally, I guess because I wasn't really technically trained per se. I didn't start at a young age. I started dancing on the streets. That's when we had crews, and if you weren't part of a crew, then you were a nerd. And I wasn't a nerd by any means. I wasn't book smart, so you had to be a part of a crew, and that's what it was. So it sort of kept me off of the street, out of trouble and fast forward, moved to LA about 10 years ago and just rebranded myself in what I was trying to do with my career. I actually started teaching children to start things off. Kind of got like, you know what? I think I could do better. I think I could, when youMichael Jamin:Say teaching children, you were teaching at schools at where? Yeah,Phil Wright:Teaching at local dance studios around the neighborhood. And honestly, it just started off like, Hey, I need some extra money, man. So I'm serving tables at Applebee's, serving two for twenties and three o'clock rolls around. I go teach a class and do my double shift, go right back to Applebee's and do the same thing all over again. And we won't talk about poker nights. But anyway.Michael Jamin:So you were starting at the bottom, but when you moved to la, did you hope to get in music videos? What was your aspiration?Phil Wright:Well, I mean, first off, I had sort of established myself in Miami. I started teaching for the Miami Heat Dance Team. Oh, really? Miami Billboard Awards, the Latin Billboard awards. And I had sort of caught fire in Miami, and I had an apartment in BIS Camp Boulevard. So I was fine. I didn't really need to move.Michael Jamin:So that must have been hard. You're going to leave all that behind.Phil Wright:Yeah. Yeah.Michael Jamin:You wanted a bigger pool or what? It wasPhil Wright:Huge. It was a huge sacrifice. And then at that time, my girlfriend, well, now wife, I just came home and I just sort of got motivated by my friends who had moved from Miami to la.Michael Jamin:And how old were you at this point when you decided to leave it behind?Phil Wright:Dude, I told my kids this all the time. It's never too late. I moved to Los Angeles when I was 26 years old.Michael Jamin:Right. Okay. Well, you're still young, but, but yeah,Phil Wright:But in artistry world, especially if you're in front of the camera, not behind the camera writing orMichael Jamin:Directly,Phil Wright:If you're in front of the camera and you have eyes on the camera, you have to be, I don't know, fresh, I guess. I don't know.Michael Jamin:Well, especially dancing, because it takes a wear and tear on your body. I mean, it really does. Definitely.Phil Wright:So during that time, you would consider that, woo, that's kind of late in the game. So I moved to LA and started all over, man. I had gave up everything and I had dreams, and I gave it all up and moved to LA to sleep on the floor in my friend's apartment, one bedroom apartment with roaches crawling on me, just,Michael Jamin:And then where did you start from? I should mention, because I haven't said this before. You're huge on YouTube. You've got well over a million followers. That's a big deal, man. That's a very big deal. Thank you. So I mean a household name, but you are making quite a name for yourself. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.Phil Wright:I like to say this broke, gets creative really quick.Michael Jamin:Yes. Tell me howPhil Wright:The motivation to, it's not money per se, it's sort of just being productive. You know what I mean? If I can stay productive, the money will follow. But when you don't necessarily have opportunities knocking at the door every single day, you have to sort of create those opportunities.Michael Jamin:So how were you doing that? What were you doing?Phil Wright:This was the time when Instagram was around and we had our 15 second videos. These were 15 second videos. And I would go out on the street, gorilla style, no permits. I hope they won't catch me now, but no permits, no nothing. And I would get the most popular song that would drop at midnight, photograph something, get two or three friends, and record a dance routine in the middle of the street.Michael Jamin:And this, was it Vine or Instagram?Phil Wright:This was Instagram during the time. This is after Vine.Michael Jamin:Okay.Phil Wright:Now, strategically, what I would do is get the teachers that were already teaching in the classrooms, but I wasn't teaching during that time. No one knew who I was. I knew who those people were because I took those people's classes. So they knew I was a great dancer. They knew I was good people. So they would say, sure, yeah, Phil, we'll dance with you. And no one really, at that time, videos were not big. They weren't a big deal. So I would get them and they would just, Hey, look. And my pitch was like, I only need 15 seconds your time. That's it. 15 seconds, we'll do two eight counts. That's it. And you'll make a new appearance and then you bounce out. ButMichael Jamin:What was your expectation when you were putting these videos up?Phil Wright:My expectations were to get into classrooms, to teach classes.Michael Jamin:Oh, okay. Why? Because you need a following to get to teach in a classroom.Phil Wright:Absolutely.Michael Jamin:Really?Phil Wright:Absolutely. SeeMichael Jamin:That I did not know, even in a small little private studio, you need a following.Phil Wright:You need a following. If people don't know who you are, they're not coming to take class.Michael Jamin:But I would think that my daughters went to take dance class and there was a studio in the neighborhood, and we went there.Phil Wright:Yeah, I mean, well, I'm thinking, I'm talking more of entertainment, not your residential.Michael Jamin:So these classes are more,Phil Wright:These are professionalMichael Jamin:Dance classes, classes,Phil Wright:Debbie Reynolds Dance Complex. These are where the pros go toMichael Jamin:Try. Okay.Phil Wright:And my hope was is to grab these teachers and let them be a part of my video, and I produce it. Well, I cut it. I get on my little editing app, cut it up really quick. And my hope was is if they were ever absent, the studios would see that and say, oh, wow, who's this guy dance with? JR Taylor. Oh, Jr. R Taylor's out next week. Let's just get this guy, because JR Taylor must know this guy.Michael Jamin:So funny, because I did a post a while ago where I said, get in the neighborhood, get as close as you can physically possible to the person whose job you want, pick up their scraps. And that's exactly what you did. You just pick up their scraps. And now you're that guy now.Phil Wright:Yeah. And you know what? I actually had a friend of mine, we guess, I don't know, associates, and he came to me, and during that time, I had asked him to be a part of my video. At that time, no one knew me or this and that, and he declined. He was just like, no, I don't have time and everything like that. And now, fast forward six, seven years later, I invited him to my house, to my birthday party. Actually, dude, I've never told you this, but I have to apologize. I didn't know you. I was like, dude, that's water on the bridge. Doesn't matter. You didn't know me. You know what I mean? But I had to put myself out there for people to even say my name, whether if it was good or bad, at least I'm buzzing in some type of way. ButMichael Jamin:You see, people didn't know how serious you were. I'm sure you must've known people who did what you did and gave up after about a week and a half.Phil Wright:Yeah. But bro, I was on a tyrant. I would shoot, say five to seven videos a day, and remember, it's only 15 seconds. So I would shoot that and then release 'em every day throughout.Michael Jamin:It's difficult. It becomes, you're never done. You're never done. It's like, I imagine it's sorting the mail. The mail doesn't stop coming, man. And that's what posting is like. Do you still keep that same schedule?Phil Wright:Well, it's tough. Now. I got two kids. I got a wife, you know what I mean? Now my home base is traveling. I travel a lot. I'm always on the plane. And I've already built up this sort of following online to where now I can, Hey, I'm in Arizona. I can put a post out and say, Hey, I'm in Arizona. And then I'll just get a wild spread of emails. Hey, could you come to my studio? Hey, could you come here?Michael Jamin:Is that right? So that's okay. So I want to know how that works. You decide what city you're going to go to, and you'll spend a week there. You decide, this is all your decision, right? I'm going to go to Phoenix. And then somehow, because all these people follow you on social media, these studio owners, they book you, and they know that the people, your fans are going to come see you at the studio. So it's easy for them. It's almost like a no brainer.Phil Wright:Well, that's the hope. You know what I mean? That you post that and they hope that people come to the studio. But in reality, I do so much with posting and promoting their own studio. They're going to go to Michael Jamin, writers Dance Studio five o'clock, see you there. Whether or not people come or not, the fact that I'm showing up there gives you such a boost to say, Hey, Phil Wright was at my studio. This is the footage. This is the class footage. You might want to check out Michael Jamin Writer's Studio next time that you're in town,Michael Jamin:But are you getting paid a percentage of the people who come, or are they just booking you? And regardless,Phil Wright:We're past that,Michael Jamin:Steve. We can't talk about that. I want to know how it works to be No, no,Phil Wright:No. We can definitely, no, that's sort of like the beginning stages of things. People handle their own the way they want to, but I work off of a flat rate, soMichael Jamin:So they book, you get paid either way,Phil Wright:Right? They book the hotel, the flight, they booked me myMichael Jamin:Time's. So interesting. So you're almost like a comedian, except you're doing dance.Phil Wright:Own my own boss, my own company. I created my own company for, right, Inc. And was able to go move off of that. SoMichael Jamin:Do you have employees working for you? Is that what Well,Phil Wright:I did have an assistant that helped me all the logistics, like getting the flights and the hotels and stuff like that. But she's moved on to bigger and better things. But now I'm just solely working for myself right now, just I don't have How many,Michael Jamin:So you travel every week. Are you in a different city everyPhil Wright:Week? Yeah. So I also do work for another company, a dance convention called Break the Floor. So they hire me seasonal throughout the fall up until the summer, and then I have that. So that's where you see all, I'm in the ballroom full of kids in the classes. They have numbers on their chest andMichael Jamin:Stuff. And those kids, what do they aspire? What do those kids, when you say, what do you think they want?Phil Wright:Most of them want to be professional dancers. Some of them just want to be in the room, some of them. Or you get the families that were past pro dancers that are trying to get the other kids into their kids, into dancing. So the motivation is like, yes, this is a professional. We're hiring Phil Wright, he's coming to Nebraska. Get your tickets now.Michael Jamin:See? And you have to have the right temperament for that, because you have to have the right energy to deal with kids. I mean, I wonder if there's a lot of people like you who do that.Phil Wright:Well, I would say there's not too many kid teachers out there.Michael Jamin:It's interesting. You've got this niche for yourself,Phil Wright:Enormous amount of patience. SoMichael Jamin:Yes.Phil Wright:So I think that helps me out in my age. I'm very one of the very few that teaches kids. There are other few teachers out there, but I think that's where most of my clock comes from.Michael Jamin:Do you have a community of other dancers like yourself who do what you do?Phil Wright:Yeah. I mean, some of them are more on the pro side, like, Hey, they work with artists per se only. Right?Michael Jamin:Interesting.Phil Wright:Luckily for me, I'm in a space where I get to do a little bit of everything,Michael Jamin:Really.Phil Wright:I choreographed commercials. I just finished a commercial with Kevin Hart and DraftKings. That's going to come out later.Michael Jamin:You got to teach him how to dance.Phil Wright:Well, that was pretty funny. That was pretty funny. He came up to me and he was missing his cue, and I was like, because he was supposed to do a pump, and the pyro was supposed to go off in the back. And I go up to Kevin, I was like, Kevin, dude, you're making me look bad, man. You're not pumping on time. He goes, Phil, when you get to a status of mine, you're going to do whatever the hell you want to do.Michael Jamin:Really? Oh, alright. As long as the director'sPhil Wright:Okay. I go, okay, okay. And I said, well, after we did the take, I go, well, I guess I'm out of a job then. Thanks cv. And he started laugh. So that was sort of a moment for me.Michael Jamin:I said this to my wife a couple of weeks ago because I was just, I don't know what got me started. I was the thing about choreography, which to me is so, because I'm not a dancer, I don't know how you guys do anything. It's so interesting. I don't know how you guys do it. It's like you're telling a story with movement and really good choreography is from my unknown. My opinion is, I guess just an outsider. To me, it's so specific to that song. It's almost like you can't even use that move in another song. An extreme example would be Michael Jackson's thriller. Okay, you're dancing like a zombie. You can't use those zombie moves in another video. It just won't work. And it's like, I don't know how you guys do that. I don't know how you even begin. Where do you begin when you choreograph a piece?Phil Wright:The creative process can be interesting for each individual choreographer. Everyone else has their own process. It's like writing. You may burn incense and then get in, go into a dark or something like that. Whatever happens to me. But the creative process is quite different from a lot for a lot of different people. For me, per se, I go to sleep with the music on. I wake up to the music, I listen to the lyrics as much as possible, and I get into a very creative mode where it's not manufactured. What I mean by that is it's not like, okay, I'm going to go here and think I'm going to go here, rather than just kind of letting my body settle in and let it happen. It's almost like, I don't know, cold reading, if you will, just off the whim, let's just go off of the cuff. And then that's where my creative juices start to flow. Now I get into a mode where I do it very subconsciously. I try not to block out hours to choreograph. I sort of just go out throughout my day and create movement and live life as easy asMichael Jamin:Possible. But then how do you remember if you're choreographing it on the fly, then how do you remember? What do you do? You film yourself?Phil Wright:Film myself. Yeah. Film myself real quick. It's like an idea. Writing. Oh, an idea. Lemme write that down.Michael Jamin:And when you're dancing, is it in your head or is it in your body? Where are you remembering thesePhil Wright:Moves? Some of it is, is initiated with through feeling and emotion, man and heart. Some things just touch you all so much on an emotional level. That's why I say manufactured is going through your head and trying to say, okay, let me form these shapes on the dance floor. AndMichael Jamin:He shapes,Phil Wright:Yeah, shapes and movement and how you would love to see your class move.Michael Jamin:Well, that's another thing. Now I'm thinking about you're choreographing just yourself, but you might have everyone, I might be doing something different. It has to mesh together. AndPhil Wright:I'm thinking about the masses, man. I'm thinking about what I would want to choreograph and how would this put me in a mood? Let's just say like Beyonce's new Renaissance tour album I put on her album. I'm thinking about arenas, I'm thinking about. So I think of that, and that puts me in a mode of larger movement to please a larger crowd. Whereas you take that compared to TikTok dancing, you have to say it in this littleMichael Jamin:Box. Yeah, right.Phil Wright:Please. You're more of a commercial. You're trying to sell or promote something.Michael Jamin:It'sPhil Wright:Different. Yeah. It's much, much, much different.Michael Jamin:Are you watching other dancers and saying, oh my God, how do I do that? Or that move?Phil Wright:I get inspired all the time. I know some choreographers don't like to watch, but I love to watch. And you know what? To their point, you don't want to watch so much because subconsciously when you get into your creative process, you end up doing what they do. You know what I mean? It's like,Michael Jamin:Ah. Well, that's the thing. Do you feel like you have a defined feel right style that you don't want? Do you not want be inspired, too much inspiration from somebody else? Because you don't want it to bleed into your work. You don't want to dilute your voice.Phil Wright:My inspiration comes from hard work and ethic, or how they're working and how they're releasing their content rather than the actual material.Michael Jamin:Oh, I see.Phil Wright:Or how are they promoting it or how are they editing it? You know what I mean? Oh, what's the new camera that they're using? Are they doing depth? You know what I mean? So those are the things that I look for. That's where my motivation,Michael Jamin:Because I was going to ask you, because if you saw someone with some move that you've never seen before, would you try it? Or would you feel like, no, that's just not mine can't.Phil Wright:There's nothing new under this sun. It's been done already. It's definitely been done already. I don't see anything. Oh, wow. You know what I mean? It's more, for me, it's about the work ethic more thanMichael Jamin:Anything else. Interesting. So howPhil Wright:Are you changing the game from yesterday into tomorrow?Michael Jamin:Okay, so what's your thought on that? How are you doing that?Phil Wright:It's hard because, well, for me, I think there should be a, well, for me, I'm in a transition phase. In 2022, no, 2020, I sold my TV show to Disney Channel.Michael Jamin:Yes, I wanted to talk about that. But go, yeah, let's talk about it now then.Phil Wright:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the big worry, and let's just put this footnote, the big worry of every dancer is that, okay, my time is running out.Michael Jamin:WhatPhil Wright:I do, what am I, I'm not dancing anymore. You know what I mean? So I was approached by Irene Drayer, who saw an article that was written on me teachers about parents and students dancing. She said, Hey, I think this is a TV show. I said, lady, you're wasting my time. I got to go teach class. She goes, no, I'm serious. Nine months later, we're in Disney's office. This is when Gary Marsh was head of television and programming at Disney Show. And he actually came to one of my classes and saw my class and was inspired. And nine months later, I was able to sell a TV show, a dance competition show to Disney Channel.So let's just put that to the side really quick. My hope was, okay, yes, I'm out. I got something, I sold a show. I don't have to dance anymore, really. You know what I mean? I can be a personality now. I can promote myself in a different fashion. This is another mountain that I can climb and be successful at. Fast forward TV shows goes on. We do not so well, because it was during covid no's watching TV there. Everyone was watching CNN. So our timing was off. And I went back to the drawing board. I went back to teaching. ButMichael Jamin:You see, it's a couple of interesting things. First of all, I don't think you would've sold that show had you not already built yourself up. I mean, you have a big following. So it's not like you were just the guy with an idea, Hey, here's a show. You are a guy who had built something already who went in and pitched a show, right? I mean, it's a big difference. But I don't think people realize that. A lot of people are like, I got an idea on your first date in la. If you said, I want to sell a Dan show. Okay, well, sorry, it's not going to happen. So you had to build it first. And then the other thing is interesting is that people think that you're never done with it. The journey never ends. Wherever you are in career is more that you have to do, and you're always thinking about the next thing. So yeah. So you aspire. Well, I was going to ask you. Yeah, because knowing that youth, you lose your youth in every creative industry, you have to be always thinking about the next thing. And so you're just to be more of this personality, which you already are. I mean, maybe you don't realize it. I realize it. When you're booked to go to Arizona, it's you. They're booking. It's not even your dance moves, it's you. You know what I'm saying?Phil Wright:I tell my students all the time, like dancers per se, we spent a great amount of deal of creating and ultimately making these artists lookMichael Jamin:Great on stage,Phil Wright:Either on stage or we're promoting a commercial to sell something or whatnot. And a lot of times, and I've seen a lot of dancers go through this, they go through this real down phase because we spend so much energy making everyone else stars.Michael Jamin:Oh, really?Phil Wright:As opposed to us being the actual star, we're stars, per se, among the dance community. But when it comes to the actual product of Target, target, target doesn't give to pennies and a crap about us. We can be replaced under their watch. But in our dance community, we're like, oh my God, Sarah's killing it. You know what I mean? But we're not, per se, really making our presence known and being our own bosses and being our own stars. And I think that was something that resonated with me. And I recognized very, very early in the game. So I wanted to put myself in the forefront to say, look, I know I'm helping you build your legacy, but at the same time, I need to build my own.Michael Jamin:SoPhil Wright:That was a big, big, big thing for me.Michael Jamin:And so what do you do other than trying to sell TV shows? What do you do to doPhil Wright:That? I mean, ultimately that's the big goal right there. I just want to sell ips,Be able to, and right now, I'm currently in acting classes. I take acting classes here as well. But I tell my students all the time, man, I have to open up so many doors. Open up all the doors that you can. I'm in acting class. I actually have two pictures next week with Disney and Nicole Nickelodeon. I'm on social media all the time. And I believe that there's three ways that you can do this. You can do this in person on social media, and you can do this on linear, on television. And if you can have those three lanes open, constantly rolling. When one door closed, God forbid we get hit with covid again. At least my online and television is rolling. Or if I don't have a TV show going right now, at least I'm in person traveling from here to there.Michael Jamin:Is that exhausting though? Traveling?Phil Wright:Oh, soMichael Jamin:Exhausting. So I mean, it's not like you want to do more of it. You're kind of okay with,Phil Wright:I mean, look, the reason why I'm okay with, it's because I'm so blessed to be able to createMichael Jamin:My own, to do itPhil Wright:And take downtime when I want to. I don't have a boss. I am. I'm the guy. So that's why there's a certain level of gratitude there. And there was a time where no one wanted me in their city. No one cared. So for some people to be like, oh my God, we will love to. We will pay X amount of dollars for you to come here.Michael Jamin:You camp out at one city for a week. Or will you go from Phoenix to Houston in one week?Phil Wright:I used to be able to go there and just chill out for the entire weekend or whatnot. No, I'll fly to New York, get off the plane, teach two or three classes, go back to the airport, go back home. The same. I want to be as efficient as possible. I want to be quick, fast. And for me, if I can make X amount of dollars in six hours with me just sleeping on a plane, then that's fine. You know what I mean? Whereas I used to travel in my red Mitsubishi to San Francisco for 200 bucks. You know what I mean? So it's a process. So it's a level of gratitude that goes with it. But I'm fast, man. I get in and I get out, and if whatever it takes to get it done, I get it done.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my content, and I know you do because you're listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people like you can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michaeljamin.com. And now back to, what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about?I guess you're a YouTuber, right? Are you in that community, that YouTubePhil Wright:Circle? I guess I made videos for a long time. I'm not as avid as I was before, but I was dropping videos every day. But now, here's the problem with what I was doing, is that I was using music that was licensed to these big artists. And I would get notices on my YouTube all the time and say, Hey, there's copyright infringement you can't monetize. So I never made money from my YouTube per se. You know what I mean?Michael Jamin:But I see people on Instagram or TikTok dancing to popular songs. I seePhil Wright:That. I do that all the time. But you have to understand that that influences third party companies to come after you and say,Michael Jamin:Sure it does. Oh my God,Phil Wright:We see how many views do you have on YouTube? Can you shoot this Friz commercial? Or can you do thisMichael Jamin:Target? Oh, okay. So they're not monetizing, those people are not monetizing their Instagram that way. They're monetizing by getting brand deals or whatever.Phil Wright:But now, don't quote me on that because they may be monetizing. They may be. But I'm just talking about, for me, I never had the luxury of monetizing YouTube because of the copyright infringement clause. AndMichael Jamin:On YouTube, did you teach yourself all this, or did you figure this out as you went? Or was someone helped youPhil Wright:Broke, gets creative really quick. I think we all established that, man, when you have nothing, man, when you're against the wall, you find ways to succeed. And fortunately, I was able to find a lane and make it work. A lot of my friends tell me today, they're like, I don't know how you did it,Michael Jamin:Man. Really? Yeah. Really.Phil Wright:And I knock on wood, man, because I'm so lucky.Michael Jamin:What did your family think of all this when you're starting out?Phil Wright:My wife is very supportive. I have a 3-year-old and a 2-year-old. So they're very young.Michael Jamin:No, I mean your family, your parents, myPhil Wright:Family at home. Well, my mom passed it 2015. And you know what? I think that had a lot to do with it as well, because a part of the notion of moving out to la I'm the baby of the family, so I was the last one to leave. So my whole motivation was to make her proud, come back home, buy her a bigger house, et cetera, et cetera. Consequently taking her life in 2015. And for some reason, and no matter what you believe in or whatever, I felt like as an artist, for me, the universe kind of gives you an exchange for some reason. And for some reason, my career, justMichael Jamin:Right after that, you felt there was an exchange.Phil Wright:I swear to you. I promise you. I promise you. It was an exchange. And I had not booked a single job in LA for two years. I get that news, and it was actually on the same day that I had booked my job, and my sister called me, she told me the news, and at that point, I went from on cloud nine to zero. None of it at all at that point. None of it. None of it matters. You know what I mean? You give these jobs and you give these companies and you give all of these achievements, so much power over you. You sort of block out the real necessity in life is life itself. So shortly after that, Mike, my career just, I went crazy and YouTube started popping off. Instagram started popping off. I started to make a name for myself. People started inquiring for me and everything. So it was a pretty wild period for me. It was emotionally kind of weird because I was appreciative, but not as appreciative as I would be if my mom were stillMichael Jamin:Right. Yeah, it puts it all in perspective. So you must've been dealt. I mean, people don't realize the sacrifice. I don't know. I think a lot of people, you took a giant sacrifice. You left your family, and a lot of people don't want to do that. They talk about it, but they don't do it. And so everything you gained, you paid for, you paid it.Phil Wright:Like I said, I swear to you, I just always see it as an exchange. I always see it as an exchange. And I tell my students all the time, you work hard at it, it'll come. Talent is great. That's awesome to have. But two main things are the main reason why I'm always booked is because people like me,Michael Jamin:Man,Phil Wright:I love people. I love to talk to people. Hell, I invited you to my birthday party. I don't even know whoMichael Jamin:You're, you did. I said, let's get you on my show.Phil Wright:But I love people and I love interacting and things like that. So I tell my students all the time, talent is great. It's good to have. It's a good weapon to have, but you have to be likable. You have to walk into a room and people light up because of you always have to stop if you can do that.Michael Jamin:And that's very interesting because what you're describing is people have to like you. What you're describing is that, that you're giving these people something you're actually, and it's not entitled. It's not like, Hey, look at me. I'm the star. What can I give you? How can I be nice to you? How can I be kind to you so that you'll like me as opposed to me, me, me, me. It's really putting the energy outPhil Wright:There would be at ease. People will never book me on their two year tour if I'm going to be a paint. Right? People are not going to write with you for nine months straight. AndMichael Jamin:People talk. People talk. Yeah. I'm always just shocked when I'm on a set and some young actor or actress will behave. When don't you realize that when you leave, we all talk. We talk to our friends On other shows, you don't understand that. So be nice to people.Phil Wright:Right? Right. Absolutely. And then no matter how much you trust somebody, everyone has secrets that they're going to tell. So someone's going to secret to somebody else. And for whatever you think you trust, it's going to leak. But that's funny about our industry is because networking is a huge about our industry in the entertainment world, not just dancing, not just acting, not just writing, not just producing just in general. You have to network. I got hired to do an NBA commercial because one of the producer is friends with one of the parents students that I teach.Michael Jamin:Interesting.Phil Wright:Literally, he was in the room and said, man, I need a choreographer. She goes, oh my God, this cool guy teaches my daughter. He goes, okay, cool. Send him the number.Michael Jamin:Well, you see, that's how it works. It's like you put the energy out there. It wouldn't have worked the other way around. If you had solicited the NBA or whoever, it wouldn't have worked. I'm a go away. But when you put yourself out there, you get discovered. It's the energy thing. Absolutely. And so it's the opposite of what so many people think. It's like people always begging, hire me, hire me. And it's not what you have to do. It's the other way around.Phil Wright:The moment I started to pour more into myself. That's when I started bookingMichael Jamin:More. What do you mean pour more into yourself?Phil Wright:When I started to make my, when I prioritized me, the times wire knocking on the door, hello, hello. Hang on. Hey, look at me. Please, please, please. No one will give me a time. Yes,Michael Jamin:Nobody,Phil Wright:Nobody. But when I started getting my own stuff, creating my own videos that's on the street for no dime, no nothing, just pure investment in art, all of a sudden everyone started to gravitate towards me and say, oh, okay. Well, we'll hire you to come and teach at the studio. And look, when I was knocking at the door, I was only trying to make a buck. I was just trying to make a pig check. So it just,Michael Jamin:But think how empowering that is because you're telling people you don't have to ask for permission. Just do it. It's empowering. You get to do

On this week's episode, I have author Shelia Heti, book writer of Pure Color, Motherhood, Alphabetical Diaries, and many many more. We talk about how I discovered her writing and why Pure Color meant so much to me. She also explains her writing process and how she approaches a story. There is so much more.Show NotesSheila Heti Website: https://www.sheilaheti.com/Sheila Heti on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheila_HetiMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptSheila Heti:That's what I was thinking.Michael Jamin:It was work harder.Sheila Heti:I was like, I got to work harder than any other writer alive.Michael Jamin:And what did that work look like to you?Sheila Heti:Just always writing and always not being satisfied and being a real critic of my work and trying to make it better and trying to be more, try to get it to sound and more interesting and figure out what my sentences were and letting myself be bad and repeat myself until I got better. And I don't think that I ever let that go. I'm not sitting here today saying, I work harder than any other writer alive. I do remember having that feeling when I was young. That's what I need to do. That's the only wayMichael Jamin:You're listening to What the hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity. I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts.Michael Jamin:What the hell is Michael Jamin talking about today? Well, ladies and gentlemen, I'm talking about, honestly, one of the greatest, I feel, one of the greatest writers of my generation. Yep, yep. Her name is Sheila Hedy. She's the author of I guess 11 books, including Pure Color, although it's spelled with a U, the Canadian Way, a Garden of Creatures, motherhood, how Should a Person Be? And her forthcoming book, alphabetical Diaries. And she's just an amazing talent. So she's an author, but I don't describe her this way. And by the way, I'm going to talk about Sheila for about 59 minutes, and then at the end I'll let her get a word and then I'll probably cut her off. But I have to give her a good proper introduction. She's really, really that amazing of a writer. So author isn't really the right word. She really is, in my opinion, an artist who paints with words.And if you imagine going up to a Van Gogh painting, standing right up next to it, and then you see all these brushstrokes, and then you take a step back and you're like, okay, now I see the patterns of the brushstrokes. And you take a little step back, oh, the patterns form an image. Then another step back, you say, oh, that's a landscape. It really is like that with her writing. She has these images that she paints with words, and then they form bigger thoughts and you pull back and it's really amazing what she does and how she kind of reinvents herself with each piece. And so I'm so excited and honored she for you to join me here so I can really talk more about this with you. Thank you for coming.Sheila Heti:Yeah, thanks. That introduction made me so happy. Thank you for saying all that.Michael Jamin:Lemme tell you by the way, how I first discovered you. So I have a daughter, Lola, she's 20, she's a writer, and we trade. I write something we trade. It's really lovely that we get to talk about. And so she's off at school, but she left a book behind and I'm like, all right, what's this book she left behind? Because that way I can read it and we can talk about that, have our book club. And she left Pure Color. And I was like, oh, I like the cover, so I'll take a look at it. And what I didn't realize, it was the perfect book to discover you by because it's book about among other things, about a father's relationship with his daughter. So I text her, I say, I'm reading pure color. She goes, Sheila Hedy's, one of my favorite authors. If I could write anybody, it would be her. I'm like, all right, well, I got to continue reading this. And then a couple of days later, I get to the part and I send her a text. I say, you and me would make a great leaf. And she goes, that's my favorite part. The tree. That's my favorite part.You're also an interviewer. You've interviewed some amazing writers. Joan Didion, Margaret Atwood, big shots. And so I'm sure as an interviewer, you give a lot of thought to your first question. So I was trying to, I better give a lot of thought to my first question, and I kept coming back to the same one, which is pure color. It's such a big swing. If you were to pitch me this idea, you'd say, I'm going to write a book. It's about a father's relationship with his daughter, but it's also about a woman's unrequited love with her friend, but it's also about the soul and what it means to have a life. I'd say, I don't know, Sheila, that's kind of a big swing. I don't know about this, but you hit it out of the park, you did it. It was beautifully done. And so my first question is, you come up with an idea like this, where do you get the nerve to think that you can actually pull this off? This is really where do you get the nerve to think that, okay, I'm going to do this.Sheila Heti:The nerve.Michael Jamin:Well, it's such a big swing. It's like, how do you know you can do this? Do you know what I'm saying?Sheila Heti:Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I don't know that I could do it. So it's nice to hear. I mean, I don't think that you ever think you're going to be able to finish the book that you start, and then when you finish a book, you never think you're ever going to start a new one. That's sort of where I am right now. In that confused place. There's a part of it that always feels like, I dunno how to explain it. I mean, I don't know how to answer that question. It's a weird process. There's no process. There's no system to doing it, and then you hope you did it. You feel good and it feels done, but you dunno how you ever got there.Michael Jamin:And how do you know you arrived? How do you know when it's time to quit on something? And do you ever quit on something?Sheila Heti:Yeah. Yeah, A lot. A lot. But usually not like three or four years in, usually 60 pages in or something like that.Michael Jamin:60Sheila Heti:Pages is when you start thinking this is not working.Michael Jamin:Is it a gut feeling? How do you knowSheila Heti:Your curiosity runs out?Michael Jamin:Your curiosity runs out. Okay, so you get bored by it yourself?Sheila Heti:Yeah.Michael Jamin:Is that what you're saying?Sheila Heti:Yeah, it's just like, that was fun. That was nice. That was a good couple of weeks. I was really excited. I really thought this was going somewhere. And then it just ends. It's like a relationship. You think, oh, this is so great, I'm going to be with this person. And then after six months you're like,Michael Jamin:I was kidding myself. But you're writing. I have so much I want to say, it seems like you reinvent yourself with each piece. You know what I'm saying? It's like pure color is very, very different from how should a person be, which I was like, okay, I want to read this. I'm not sure how should a person be, which is extremely different from alphabetical diaries, which is almost like an experiment. And I wonder, do you get pushback from your agent or your publisher? Do they want you to do the same thing? We know it works.Sheila Heti:No, I think that at this point there's no expectation of that. When I wrote my second book, there was a feeling like that's not the first one. And there was some disappointment and the publisher said, this book doesn't count as your next book. In part, I think it was so different, but I think at this point that's, I mean, I've been publishing for 20 years. That's not really what people say to me anymore.Michael Jamin:Really? What do they say? They say, oh good, this is fresh. And it's more from you.Sheila Heti:No, I mean, I guess I changed publishers a lot more than other people do. So my publisher of motherhood didn't like pure color, so they rejected it. So I found a different publisher and the publisher of Tickner, my second book didn't like how should a person be? So I found a different publisher. So I think I move around a lot for that reason.Michael Jamin:Is that common with authors? You have to tell me all about this author thing? No, it's not really common.Sheila Heti:No. Usually you have one publisher and one editor and you just stick with them for a long time. SoMichael Jamin:It seems though you came up through the art. Alright, I have this idea of who you are from reading your books. You have, it's all very personal what you write and which makes it brave. It's brave for a couple of reasons. It's brave because you're being so vulnerable, you're putting yourself out there, but it's also brave. I feel like you're trying something new each time and that could fail. And so that to me is part of what makes your writing so exciting. But do you have any expectation when you're writing something which is so different, do you have an expectation of your reader how you want them to react?Sheila Heti:I mean, I want them to get to the end of the book. That's what I want. I want to draw them through, but I don't think I have a feeling like, oh, I want them to be sad on this page and I want them to be curious of this page and feel this way on this page. I just want them to be interested enough to get to the end. So how do I keep that momentum up and how some people conversation, they have long monologues, they're like a monologue, but I'm not because I'm always afraid people are going to lose interest. So I kind of feel like the same with my book. I'm always afraid that somebody's going to lose interest. So I'm always trying to keep it moving,Michael Jamin:But it's not an emotional reaction. I mean, your writing is very philosophical to me. When I'm reading your work, I feel like maybe this is my theory about what you have, and I'm sure it's not right, but it's that there are passages which I feel are so rich and so smart, and I have so much thought that I have to go back and read it again. So I'm wondering if that's what you're thinking. I want to write something that makes people have to read it again.Sheila Heti:No, I never think that because a very fast reader, and I don't reread passages and I don't read slowly. So for me, I'm always thinking that people are reading. I'm always imagining the person reading kind of fast,Michael Jamin:But thought. I mean some of them are really, some of your thoughts are very deep and very profound, and I'm like, I'm not sure if I understood all this. I got to read it again. I mean, don't you think? No.Sheila Heti:Yeah, I guess so. I don't know. I don't really think about that. I don't really think about the person, the reader in that way of like, are they going to have to read this again? Is this going to be hard for them to understand? I think my language is very straightforward. Yeah. I don't know how I think about the reader. I think of myself as the reader. So I'm really writing it so that I like every sentence. I like the way it turns. I like the pictures it makes.Michael Jamin:But when you say I want them to get to the end, what are you hoping they'll do at the end? Is there any hope or expectation?Sheila Heti:Well, I think especially in pure color, the end is really important. It kind of makes the whole book makes sense. And motherhood too, and maybe less how should a person be and less alphabetical diaries. But I think in some cases, a book, I'm somebody who doesn't always read books to the end. I like getting taste of different author's minds and so on. But I think in the case of some books, you have to read it to the end to really understand the whole, so that's in the case of pure color, why I wanted people to get to the endMichael Jamin:BecauseSheila Heti:It makes the beginning mean something different. If you've read.Michael Jamin:It does. I mean it is, and it's about processing grief. So do you outline when you come up with an idea, where do you begin?Sheila Heti:Well, with pure color, I thought I want to write a book about the history of art criticism. So I always start off really far away from where I end up. I always think that I want to write a book of nonfiction and I'm not a good nonfiction writer, so it always ends up being a novel. But I think I usually start off with an, well, in the case of this book, I also started off with this title that I had in my dream. The title was Critics Bayer, BARE. So I was thinking about art criticism and so on, but then I don't know, the books kind of take on their own direction. I never really understood when people said that they had characters that sort of did things that they didn't expect. But I feel like that is true sometimes of the book as a whole. It moves in a direction I didn't expect, so I couldn't outline.Michael Jamin:You don't outline all. And so does it require you to discover what the story is then once you find it, toss out the stuff that's not the story orSheila Heti:Yeah, I basically write way too much and then just cut and try to find the story and move things in different orders and try to find the plot after. I've written a ton of stuff already,Michael Jamin:Because I know from reading, you come from the art world, you're an artist and I think you hang out with artists, people, so you talk about what art is, is that right or no, do not shatter what I think of now. That's not itSheila Heti:Mean and relationships and all that kind ofMichael Jamin:Stuff and relationships. Because I mean, I don't know, it seems like that's why I say you're an artist. You have these conversations even about what art is. And do you draw inspiration from paintings when you approach?Sheila Heti:Yeah, I'm interested in the book as art. I think more than storytelling. I'm interested in the book as sort of an experience that you're undergoing in different way from just the experience of being told a story. I don't think that I'm so interested probably in the things that a lot of other novelists are interested in, character and plot and conflict and all those things.Michael Jamin:Well, it's really, I've heard you say this, it's really, you're writing various forms of you and it's very personal and very intimate. But you also made the distinction in something I read where there's Sheila, the author, then there's Sheila, the character. Is that right?Sheila Heti:Yeah. I mean, in two of the books there's kind of a character that sort of stands in a way for me, but it never really, it doesn't feel like a direct transcription of myself or my life or my thoughts. There's always this feeling of maybe it's like how actors are, there's a part of yourself that goes into the character and there's other parts of yourself that are left out.Michael Jamin:And so I was going to say, is there stuff about you that you leave out, for example? I mean, how should a person be? Or alphabetical diaries, it feels like we're talking about you, right?Sheila Heti:Yeah. Well, how should a person be felt? A lot like a character pretty, I was thinking about Paris Hilton and Lindsay Lohan. This was like 2005, and Britney Spears and these kind of women in culture that were bad girls and doing things sort of the subject of so much attention and so narcissistic or considered Narcissistic and the Hills, which was a show that I really loved. And sort of thinking about this character in the book being a voice that was somewhere between me and those girls. So there was this, this layering on of personalities, which I'm not thinking about. What does it mean to try to be a celebrity? What does it mean to be one? To be looked at, to idolize oneself? Those are my diaries. So there wasn't a sense of a character in the same way, but because the sentences are separated from one another, I guess it's like I don't feel like I'm telling anybody anything about my life. There's no anecdote in there.Michael Jamin:But I see that's the thing. And we'll just talk about alphabetical diaries because you're telling with such an, let me tell people what it's, so it's basically an ordinary diary is chronological. This is what I did today and this is tomorrow, whatever. But you grouped your diary by the first letter of each sentence, which organized, and this is again, another high degree of difficulty. This could have easily been gimmicky, but it was a rethinking of what a diary is. And when I say patterns emerge, so for example, when you get to D, these was do not whatever or do this or that. So you hear, okay, so here's a person creating rules for themselves. And then an E was even though, so now they're creating rules, but creating exceptions for these rules, making allowances. And so what you have is, and was so interesting about it, many of these thoughts were contradictory.So you're painting a picture of this person, but in one sentence, okay, maybe she's dating this guy. And the next sentence, this other guy, I'm like, well, what's going on here? Then I realize, oh, this is not chronological. And so I'm getting a complete picture of this person, which is so interesting, but, so I know who I guess know who you are, but I don't know who you are today. I know who you are as this arching thing in your life, which is so fricking interesting. And that was where the thought process going into this,Sheila Heti:Yeah, mean. So it's like 10 years of diaries and I put it into Excel and the a z function. So it's completely alphabetical first letter of the sentence and then the second letter and the third letter. And it was just, I mean, I guess I wanted to see exactly that. What happens if you look at yourself in that way? Do you see patterns? Do you understand yourself in a different way? Not narratively, but as a collection of themes or Yeah, exactly. That a scientific or sort of a cross section of yourself.Michael Jamin:Yeah,Sheila Heti:And it worked that way. I think with the diaries, what you do see is, oh, there are sort of these recurring thoughts and these recurring themes and these recurring ways of perceiving the world and perceiving yourself that persists over 10 years. That actually the one self, you think of yourself as this thing that's constantly changing through time and especially a diary gives you that feeling, but then when you do it alphabetical, the self looks like a really static kind of thing in way, no, I'm actually just these few little bubbles of concerns that don't change,Michael Jamin:That keep recurring when, by the way, when people say everything's been done before everything's been written, it's like, well, you haven't read Sheila Heady. Start reading hers. This is different. This why's so interesting about, that's why I think you're such an amazing writer, and it totally worked. Totally. You get a picture of this person and the recurring themes and recurring worries and, and even one of them, some things that struck me, there was one passage where it's like you go into a bookstore and you're like, isn't this also novels? Isn't it also unimportant? And I'm like, no, if it was, you wouldn't be doing this. So this was just a thought that you had at one point. It's not how you feel. It's how you felt at this one moment, right?Sheila Heti:Yeah, yeah. Literary fiction. Yeah. Like what a little tiny thing that is.Michael Jamin:But when people, okay, so now we have this picture of you and when you go do, let's say book signings or whatever, and people come up to you, they must have a parasocial relationship with you where they feel they know you. Your writing is so intimate. And what's your response to that?Sheila Heti:I think that's nice. I mean, I think that that's kind of the feeling you want people to have is it is your soul or your mind or whatever that you're trying to give people. And so if somebody feels that they know you well, in a certain sense they do. I mean, obviously not that well, they knowMichael Jamin:What you share, but there's, okay, I don't know what kind of music you like. I've read to all this stuff, but I know your insecurities and fears, but I don't know what you think is funny. I don't know what music you like. There's stuff you held back.Sheila Heti:Yeah, absolutely. But I think that's like, I don't know. I mean, I don't know. People aren't really very weird with me. Ed books or things, people are just pretty nice. And I never get this. I, I've rarely had interactions that feel creepy or weird or presumptuous or any of those things.Michael Jamin:Well, I'm not even going even that far, but they feel like they must feel like they know you certainly, but they know what you share. They know as much as you share. Right?Sheila Heti:TheseMichael Jamin:Kind of brave, bold decisions you make to create all this stuff. Is there a writer whose work you emulated in the beginning? Where do you begin to come up with this stuff? Was there someone who you wanted to write? Just like,Sheila Heti:I mean, I really loved Dostoevsky and Kafka and the heavy hitters. Yeah, I mean, I just loved all the greatest writers,Michael Jamin:But did you want to write like them?Sheila Heti:No, I mean, I think the closest I ever felt like I wanted to write a writer was, do you know Jane Bowles? BOW Elliot? She was married to Paul Bulls.Michael Jamin:No, to me, much of your work felt a little bit like it. Tall Cals, some of it works. Some of it was very ethereal and meditative.Sheila Heti:Yeah, I mean, I think Jane Bowles was the only one that I really felt myself imitating her sentences. She wrote a book called Two Serious Ladies, which I still really love. That was the only time when I felt like I was falling into somebody else's cadences and rhythms and so on. AndMichael Jamin:What happened whenSheila Heti:That was with my first book, the Middle Stories, and then the second book was written was so different. The second book I wrote was in such a different style that left me, but maybe there's still a way in which I still do. I think she's probably the writer that I write the most, if anyone. But I mean, she only wrote one book. So it's a very different kind of life than the one that I've had. No, I'm just always just trying to keep myself interested. So I think that I don't ever want to, I a very, I just want it to be fun for me. And so if I was to write the same book again, it wouldn't be fun. And books take five years to Write, or this diary book took more than 10 years to edit. So by the time I'm done a book, no, I'm such a different person than I was in some way when I started, even though I just said that you don't really change, but there's a way in which you get tired of thinking about the same things over,Michael Jamin:But then you think it would be hard to not constantly tinker with it. Isn't that part of the problem?Sheila Heti:I like constantly tinkering with it. That's fun.Michael Jamin:But then you have to let go. But how do you let go of it though?Sheila Heti:Well, at a certain point you start making it worse. You're like, oh, I think I'm starting to make it worse. You start to become self-conscious, and then you start to want to correct it, and then you start to want it to sort of be the person that you are today rather than the person you were five years ago. But you've got to honor the person that was five years ago that started the book. So you can't carry it on so far that you become, you've changed so much that now you're a critic of the book that's going to destroy the book.Michael Jamin:Yeah. See, that's so interesting. That's something I think about quite a bit. Yeah. How do I just let it go? And that someone else, it's funny when you talk about the language, because that's one thing that struck me about pure color. Your sentences are written in very, they're very, it's kind of brief, very, I dunno what the best way to describe it, but it's almost terse. And to be honest, if you had told, as I'm reading this, I could have thought this was said 150 years ago, and then occasionally you say you make a reference to something modern Google, and I'm like, oh, wait a minute, this takes space today. So that was a conscious, obviously decision that you made to kind of give it a timelessness.Sheila Heti:Yeah, I always kind of want that because I think that's my hope for a book is that it could be understood in a hundred years or 500 years, or you need Plato today, you want to write something that people could understand in a thousand years.Michael Jamin:But you know what I'm saying, the language, it almost felt, but your language is different though, in an alphabetical diary. Well, obviously since it's a diary, but man, so to me it's like you're not doing, like I said, you're not doing the same thing. I don't know, it could have been two different authors. That's what I'm saying. I guess it felt like two very different pieces and it was just wonderful. But when you say, so what then? Because like I said, you have these art friends, I have this whole life for you, you have these because you went to art, you studied art, and you hang out with a bunch of artists and you talk about art, and I want to know what these conversations are because we don't talk about art and TV writing. No one, we don't think we're doing art, but I feel like that's what you guys are doing. So do you talk about what the whole point of art is?Sheila Heti:I think I did when I was younger,Michael Jamin:Right? Then you grewSheila Heti:Out of it when I was in my twenties. And then you kind of figure that out for yourself in some way. Well, then you have your crises and whatever, and then you got to think about it and talk about it again. But no, I think these days what I talk about with my friends is just whatever the specific project is, whatever problems you're having with a specific thing, mostly complaining, the difficulty of not being able to pull it off or feeling like you are stuck or you're never going to be able to write it. I have these three other writers that I share my work with we're meeting tomorrow. So before I got on the call with you, I just sent something off to them, and tomorrow we're just going to have read each other's things and talk about how we feel about it. But for me, I'm just like, I think what I need at this point from them is reassurance, honestly.Michael Jamin:Reassurance,Sheila Heti:Yeah. Because you're so lost in the middle and you don't know what you're communicating and if you're communicating anything, and is it worth continuing? Should it just all be thrown out? There's so much doubtMichael Jamin:Because it's so very humble of you. You're a master writer, and yet you make it sound like you're still a student. You know what I'm saying?Sheila Heti:I mean, you think, I don't know if it's the same for you, but don't you think you're always kind of a student? BecauseMichael Jamin:Whenever you start, yeah, yeah. Look, yes. When every time you're looking at that blank page, I dunno how to do any of this.Sheila Heti:Yeah, exactly. You always feel like you're back at square one somehow.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Sheila Heti:Although now, not exactly square one. I've been starting this new book this week, and again, it may get to 60 pages and fall away from me, but now I have a different feeling that I had when I was in my early twenties. The feeling I have now is like, oh, I did that. Oh, I've had that thought before. Oh, I've written senses in that way before. What I'm trying to do now is none of the things that I've already done. They just, and so, yeah, where is this part of myself that I haven't written from yet? So that's kind where I'm now. So it's not really starting from square one, but it's still just as hard,Michael Jamin:Right? Because you feel like you've said everything you had to say or done everything you wanted. Is that what it is? Or,Sheila Heti:I know what my sentences sound like, so I feel like, oh, I'm not surprised by that sentence. That sounds like a sentence that my, I feel like I'm, you get this rhythm that is very pleasurable to write if the sentences have a rhythm, but now I'm just like, I'm tired of that rhythm. That rhythm can only give me one kind of sentence or one kind of thought. So I'm trying to figure out what else is there inside.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I imagine that's hard for someone. Basically, you're a physician who's made a hit and another hit, and what if I don't do it again? How do I do it differently? Or how do I reinvent myself now?Sheila Heti:And even just what's the meaning in this for me now? With every book, there's a different phase of life you're at. And I'm 46 now, so I dunno how old you are.Michael Jamin:How dare you? I'm 53.Sheila Heti:Yeah, I figured you were just a few years older than me. So it's a very different age to write from because you are not hungry in the same way you were when you were 23 and you were both in houses. You have accomplished certain things. And so what's the deepest part of yourself that still needs to do this when you're 23? Every part of yourself needs to do it in this extreme way. You've got to make a life for yourself. You've got to prove to yourself, you can do it. You've got to make money, you've got to all this kind of stuff. So what's the place at 46 or 53 that you're writing from that is just as vital and urgent as that place at 23?Michael Jamin:Yeah, I think actually that's why I started changing mediums. I've kind of done this headcount thing. What else can I do?Sheila Heti:So the essay, the podcast? Yeah.Michael Jamin:Well, most of the essays, the essay started the whole thing. It was like, it's funny, in your book or a couple of times, you mentioned, should I go to LA? And I'm thinking, why does she want to go to la? What was that about? What'sSheila Heti:That about? I've got family there. When I was a little kid, my parents used to put me on a plane. I was five years old and I'd be sent to LA and I had relatives and I would stay with them. And it was just, to me, it's such happy childhood memories and I just love Los Angeles. Whenever I go back, I think this is a place in the world besides Toronto that I'd most like to live.Michael Jamin:Really? So different.Sheila Heti:Yeah. I just love it. Yeah, so I love everything. I love it.Michael Jamin:Oh my God, I don't what, I've been to Toronto. I had, well, then ISheila Heti:Remember that LA's in America, and then I like, no, maybe not.Michael Jamin:Yeah, good point. Good point. So there's something else. I remember what I wanted, what I want to say. You had in one book, it was like, you're lamenting. I hope I never have to teach. And now you're teaching, right?Sheila Heti:Yeah, just for this one year.Michael Jamin:Okay. What was that about that decision?Sheila Heti:Well, I love teaching and I wanted the money because I didn't want to have to feel like I had to rush to start a new book. So I just wanted a year where I didn't have to have that anxiety of what's my next book going to be like, I've got to start. I've got to get a certain ways in and then sell it. And I like teaching a lot, and I just felt excited about the idea, but it was supposed to be a two year position, and now I've just changed it to a one year position. It becomes too much, even one day. And teaching a week is like, there's no point to writeMichael Jamin:Because you have to read all the whatever they write on the side. You're saying, well,Sheila Heti:I've got to commute two hours to get there, and then two hours home, and then, I don't know. And then your brain just sort of stays in that university space with your students for three or four days, and then you have two days where you're not with them and then you go back to school.Michael Jamin:So what does your life really look like? Your writing life? What is it like to be an author on a dayday basis?Sheila Heti:What your life is all day long? You're either writing emails or you're writing writing. Probably spend more time writing emails and doing correspondence and businessy stuff than writing. Writing, and then all the life stuff, walking the dog, doing household chores. I don't have a very regimented existence, but I just sitting in bed and being on my computer, that's sort of myMichael Jamin:Favorite. That's where you write on laptop. Oh my God, my back would kill me. But something else you said, because I really was turning to you for answers as I was reading it. I'm like, she's got the answers. And you said, and you're like, I don't have the answers, but no, I'm like, no, she's got the answers. And you said, art must have at one point, art must have humor. I think you said that in How should a person be? And I was like, really? That's what you guys think. There has to be humor in art.Sheila Heti:Oh yeah. You got to know where the funny is. Yeah, I think,Michael Jamin:Sure. I don'tSheila Heti:Understand. It's the two. I read your essay. It was very funny.Michael Jamin:Yeah. But thank you. But I have an intention. I have an intention when I write, but I don't understand why you think there has to be humor. Alright. Why do you think there has to be humor it in art?Sheila Heti:Humor's such a part of life. I mean, if you don't have humor in life or art, you're missing a huge part of the picture. I mean, it's all, it's just the absurdity of being a human. It's,Michael Jamin:Well, see the thing as a sitcom writer, look, I'm grateful to have made a living as a sitcom writer. It's what I wanted to do, but it's not like anyone looks at what we do. It's like, oh, that's high art. They go, it's kind of mostly, people think it's kind of base. And I think, and when you think about even at the Oscars, when they're fitting the best picture, it's never a comedy. It's that the comedies are not important enough. And so that's why I had this feeling like, well, can humor be an art? Can it be, ISheila Heti:Mean, I think great art always has humor in it, but it's the same thing in literature. The funny writers are not as respected as the serious ones, but I think that they're wrong. I mean, Kurt Vonnegut, I love Kurt Vonnegut. He's extremely funny, but he's never had the same status as somebody like, I dunno, Don DeLillo or whatever, because he's not serious enough. But I think it's a very, who are the people that are making that judgment? That the solemn writers that have no humor are the best writers. They're just idiots. I mean, it's not the case.Michael Jamin:I gave my manuscript to one publisher. I was rejected from him, and he wrote, he was very kind. He goes, oh, this book really works. I like it, but it's not high literature. And we do high literature here. And I was like, how dare you? I was like, well, I totally agree. It's not high literature. Not that I could write high literature, but I didn't set out to do. But there was still that sting of what you're doing is not important because it's funny.Sheila Heti:Yeah. That's a stupid editor.Michael Jamin:Well, he got the last laugh. Wait a minute, wait a minute. But yeah, I don't know. Okay. But is humor in painting and humor in all art? I mean,Sheila Heti:Yeah, levity. Well, just that scent, that aspect of life. That is the laugh that is that bubbling up laughing. Yeah. I mean, I think that that's joy. Joy and humor are very closely connected. And a work of art without humor is a work of art without joyMichael Jamin:AndSheila Heti:Wants to take that in.Michael Jamin:Then what is art? I'm honest here. You learned this when you're 20 and I haven't learned it yet. So what is art to you and what's the difference between good art and bad art?Sheila Heti:It's a reflection of the human experience. It's like an expression of what it feels like to be a human, that a human is making for another human.Michael Jamin:Okay, so it's this interpretation of what you feel, what it means to be human, is that right?Sheila Heti:It's an expression of what you feel like it means to be human.Michael Jamin:Right.

On this week's episode, I have actress Mary Lynn Rajskub (24, It’s Always Sunny In Philadelphia, The Dropout, Brooklyn 99 and many many more) and we dive into the origins of his career. We also talk about her new stand-up comedy tour she is doing and how that came about. We talk about so much more, so make sure you tune in.Show NotesMary Lynn Rajskub on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marylynnrajskub/Mary Lynn Rajskub IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0707476/Mary Lynn Rajskub on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Lynn_RajskubMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptMary Lynn Rajskub:I don't know what else to do because I am an artist. So it's always been tied to my personal life and my personal expression, and there's a therapeutic aspect to it. And I don't really, I feel like if I could have taken the route of, I don't know. I never had the ability to be like, I'm going to write scripts, so I just kind of amped up the thing that I am good at.Michael Jamin:You're listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity. I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts.Hey everyone. Welcome back for another episode of, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'm going to tell you what I'm talking about today. I'm talking with a wonderful actress named Mary Lynn Reup, who I worked with many years ago. I was introduced to her. She's doing her hair right now. How'sMary Lynn Rajskub:Your side part going? Okay, go on.Michael Jamin:Many years we were teamed up to take a pilot out based on her life and many pilots that didn't go anywhere. But Mary Lynn is, you are one of my favorite Hollywood stories, and I'm going to tell it to you and I hope it embarrasses you because it was so funny. So we were working together on telling this pilot, and then it was a few years later, we were doing Marin, mark Marin, his show. We were running his show, and then we needed someone at the last minute to play themselves in an interview. So I text Mary Lynn, I got her number on my cell phone. I text her and IMary Lynn Rajskub:Say, oh, what did I do?Michael Jamin:I say, I say, Hey, Mary Lynn, I know this is last minute, but do you want to be in our TV show? And then you wrote back, yes, who is this?Mary Lynn Rajskub:Nope,Michael Jamin:Don't need to read a part. And we script's areMary Lynn Rajskub:Important.Michael Jamin:I'll be there tomorrow. I just assumed I was in your phone. So I was like, whatever. And then we later had you on LX Buddy system, but for the people who are not entirely sure who you are, I mean, you've done a ton of stuff. Most, I guess your biggest role was Chloe on 24, which was a giant hit. So you're Chloe, but then I was also looking through your credits and you also played Chloe on Veronica's closet. And I wonder if that was just a trial run for the nameMary Lynn Rajskub:Trial. Yeah, it's in the ether that the quirky awkward girl, oh, let's call her Chloe in Veronica's closet. She was androgynous and it was Wally Langham who played her assistant on that show, if I'm remembering correctly. Both of us. His character turned out to be gay. It was actually kind of a sweet story. And so we both were ambiguous sexually, and we both had crushes on Scott Bayo, which is not adorable, butMichael Jamin:Not anymore. Do you remember all the parts you've done like this? Do you have a good memory for everything you've done?Mary Lynn Rajskub:You've doneMichael Jamin:A lot of parts.Mary Lynn Rajskub:What's funny is you're pulling the switcheroo on me because normally people will say stuff to me and I'm like, I don't remember that at all. But things like this, if you ask me what the part is and what the story is, I most likely will remember that stuff.Michael Jamin:But when you Go ahead,Mary Lynn Rajskub:Yeah, but there are some things where either, I don't know, it depends. Sometimes I'm in stuff, I'm like, I don't remember being there. I don't remember youMichael Jamin:Really. You sometimes turn on the TV and see an episode of something you've done done a ton. And they go, oh, look at there. There I am. Do you not remember?Mary Lynn Rajskub:Yeah. And it's funny, the way that you're saying it through the prism of the actual part, I'll remember that. But there's a certain, I don't know, there's certain events or one-off things or sometimes there's stuff on 24. There's a ton ton of guest stars because there's so much plot on that show, and there's so many people that get killed per episode, most likely. In that case, it's a person that I just wasn't on set with, and so I didn't have memorized the episodes of who all the characters are type of thing.Michael Jamin:Now you do a lot of, I see you posting, you're always on the road, you're always doing standup, but did you start as a standup?Mary Lynn Rajskub:I started in standup ish, yes. I was going to school for painting, and then it turned to performance art, and then I started making fun of performance art.And then I was in San Francisco and I was going to bars and doing open mic shows. I was really attracted to solo performers, but at the time it was more performance arty. And then once I started just organically making fun of it, I started to encounter comedians who would come to these. There was a crossover between artists and comedians who would go to the same open mics. And I remember seeing the comedians and going, oh, that's, oh, that's somebody that knows their voice, their natural at storytelling, because I was seeing a lot of just poetry from their journal and stuff like that. And it wasn't until I started meeting comedians that I was like, oh, those are my people. But I still didn't understand necessarily how I was being funny.Michael Jamin:And then how did you find your voice then? That takes a long time.Mary Lynn Rajskub:Oh, I think I just found it last week.Michael Jamin:Well, tell me why, how you found it. What does that mean for you to find your, I know what it means for a writer. What does it mean for you?Mary Lynn Rajskub:What I'm realizing, honestly, lately within the past few years, especially within the past decade that I've gone on the road doing comedy in earnest, is that I do have a story to tell. It's just taken me a long time to hone in on what that is. And a lot of it is just come from my life experience and putting together, oh, that's what I thought about that, reflecting on stuff, because I think when I first started, I grew up sort of in a bubble and pretty naive, and so I just was putting a vulnerability out there, but I didn't know what I was saying or what I was doing. I got a lot of acting because of thatMichael Jamin:Really. So you were vulnerable back when you were starting off?Mary Lynn Rajskub:A lot of times, and that's pretty much what I did on stages. I would improvise and I wouldn't know what I was going to say. And I can remember looking back, other people would be like, did you write a sketch packet for that? Again, there was a crossover between actors and comedy writers, and I used to just really beat myself up, and it's because I was so bogged down by whatever social anxiety and whatever my brain, the mechanism was geared towards performing, and I still can't quite articulate it, but I just know that I didn't have the presence of mind or the ability to, my brain just didn't work that way. I wasn't about to sit down and write a sketch packet. I had to go through it experientially year after year to be like, oh, I'm this type of person. That's why sometimes people will be like, they'll ask the generic question of who are your comedic influences? It's like, I never related to a guy on a stage in a suit with a tie going, here's what I think about this. It's only lately that I'm going, oh, I have an opinion on that, and it's a strong opinion, but it took me a long time to not be really reactive and really passive.Michael Jamin:But you still write out your material before as if any other comedian would, right? OrMary Lynn Rajskub:No? I do. I do. And now that I've been doing it so long, things will come to me and it's always a joy. You, and I'm sure when you're writing, sometimes you'll get those one-liners really quick that you're like, oh, that's fully formed. I'd have one line that's been in my act forever, but I just love it. It's like, did you know you could do a bunch of yoga and still be an asshole? And that's just a real quickie. I didn't sit down trying to write that. And then I have a whole another scenario that follows that, where it's like the kernel of it is truths, but the way it comes out is pretty fabricated.Michael Jamin:Do you have a preference as to, do you prefer acting or standup, or does it not make a difference to you?Mary Lynn Rajskub:I mean, at this point, I prefer standup just because there's, well, there's meat on the bone for that in terms of I get to be in control and I get to be on stage for an hour, and it's hard and it's challenging, it's exhilarating. I love acting. It's just lately it's been a bit of diminishing returns in terms of parts that I can actually be challenged by. I would absolutely love to have something that I can dig into and that would have a lot of layers to it, something that I could come back and continue to be that character. But I'm going on 10 to 15 years of the life of a lot of guest stars, which is great. I'm very thankful, and I will do that again. But that's got its own. You're coming onto a set where everybody knows each other and you're just like, I got to now in two days, fit into the tone of the show, and then I do my one thing and then I leave.Michael Jamin:And you prefer, because you do a lot of comedy, I mean, do you prefer drama then to do, is that more satisfying to you?Mary Lynn Rajskub:I mean, 24 was pretty satisfying just because it was such a big show and it was so different for me.Michael Jamin:But also, you were kind of the relief character. You were the awkward weirdo, right? Totally. Yeah.Mary Lynn Rajskub:Yeah.Michael Jamin:But is there a plan then with your, I mean, I don't know why I'm asking this. Is there more to it? Is there a bigger plan for you doing all this standard? No,Mary Lynn Rajskub:I need your help because my helpMichael Jamin:Want your helpMary Lynn Rajskub:Would, my dream would be to be able to get another acting role that I could be a regular character on something. It's a big dream. My other dream would be to sell out the tickets in the small clubs that I do, so that I could sustain what I'm already doing. And so when you say, is there a plan, that would be the plan. I don't necessarily know if I get to do that or not. I've got a few more pushes in me, and if one of those things doesn't start to pay off, I will be trying to pay for my lavish lifestyle in some other way. Maybe OnlyFans, maybe some feet videos. I heard on OnlyFans, there's big breasted women making smoothies. I could do the small breasted women making smoothies on OnlyFans.Michael Jamin:Wait, so they're not naked, but they're just making smoothies. They're naked. Oh,Mary Lynn Rajskub:Let me talk to you about something. I've spent zero time on there, but I was podcast. I have a new podcast called that. Woo. You do. Please promote it because I thatMichael Jamin:Woo. You do for sureMary Lynn Rajskub:At that. Woo. You do. I have a partner. We talk about what's a woo that you do that, A magical thinking thing that you do in your life that you think, anyway, we were digressing and our producer went on to OnlyFans. The thing about it is there's whole universe of stuff. I think it started out as soft core porn, and now it's like everything. And I can't say much more. I only spent about 40 seconds on there. But you go on there, you get an onslaught of all different kinds of things that, I mean, people are doing comedy on there. People are doing,Michael Jamin:Oh, really? On there? Yeah. So you're saying not just porn, it's justMary Lynn Rajskub:It's not just porn anymore. Whitney Cummings is doing, she did the Burt Er roast on OnlyFans. Anyway, I'm here to promote my podcast at that. Woo. You do. They don't need,Michael Jamin:But let's talk about your, okay, so what's the premise of your show, your podcast?Mary Lynn Rajskub:So my friend Jeffrey and I, he comes on the road with me. He's a very funny comedian. He features for me, and we enjoy each other's company. And he may or may not, I may, he maybe carries crystals in his pockets sometimes.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I have some crystals right here. I keep 'em on my computer in case That's what I'm talking about for creativity. It's California.Mary Lynn Rajskub:Yeah. Fuels. So the podcast is what is the woo that maybe you're embarrassed about that you do that you think, have you written yourself a check for a million dollars? Do you keep crystals on your desk to harness the energy from the universe? We had a guy talk that he started praying. I had a story about going to visit a crystal skull. One lady talked, of course psychics came up. But there's all different types of little things that you think is going to give you or things that make you happy. And they're sort of like a magical thinking.Michael Jamin:But that's a great idea actually, because it's very small, but it's very optimistic and helpfulMary Lynn Rajskub:For a podcast. And I had one woman who was like, she wasn't on the pod, but she's like, I don't have a woo. I don't have a woo. And the more we talked, she said, I'm very organized though. And I said, well, what does that bring you? And then I love organizing as a woo, because that gives her a sense of peace and calmness. And it's like, what's that thing you do that makes you feel good?Michael Jamin:When I was struggling a few years back, I was all depressed about something. And then I read this book and it was very new agey. There's a lot of the book that was, I thought this is very helpful, but this is really helpful. But then it went a little too far, and I was like, ah, you're fucking ruined it. I was on board. And then you just took it one step so far. But one of the things that he said that I thought was so helpful, it was about kind of visualizing your life or whatever. And one of the things that was so helpful, he said, it's already happened. It just hasn't happened yet. Whatever you want. It's already happened. It just hasn't happened yet. And so I was like, that was so profound to me. It was like, oh. So now I just have to figure out how to make it happen. Already done. I don't know why. I find that really helpful. Maybe it doesn't help you at all.Mary Lynn Rajskub:I love that. Well, it sort of eases the pain of, I think the idea is like we're supposed to go through these challenges and take little steps, but it's like watering a plant. You're not just like, why aren't you grown? Why aren't you a tree yet? But you're like, oh, you will be a tree. And I just know you're growing and it doesn't help to go like, why aren't you this yet?Michael Jamin:And that's what you're doing now, because you're just putting this energy out there. You're putting it with going on the road, which is not easy. And you're putting the energy out there hoping that something will come from it and something will, you just don't know what it will be.Mary Lynn Rajskub:Right. And I'm really hoping to, looking back on my life, that was a long time ago that we pitched that. I had a very good run of good fortune with having the parts shine on me for a little while there. And then of course, with the massive show of 24, and people know me from always Sunny in Philadelphia now, even though that's only a couple episodes. But I've been very lucky, but I still want to do it. So we'll see.Michael Jamin:When you're on the road, because you are on the road a lot, how many days were you on the road?Mary Lynn Rajskub:It's just aMichael Jamin:Lot. Okay. So when you're on the road, will you go from one city to the next, or do you always come back to la?Mary Lynn Rajskub:I try to come back, and the best case scenario for me would be to do two weekends a month. But it doesn't work out like that. Now, this month of November, I'm going to be out for almost the entire month because I have a lot of one nighters. Some won't give you a weekend booking some clubs. So it's just one nighters that I can get booked, and then I'm going.Michael Jamin:And then do you drive from city to city then, or what? Or you fly?Mary Lynn Rajskub:No, at the time, I'm just doing a lot of one-way flights,Michael Jamin:One-way, flights back and forth.Mary Lynn Rajskub:Yeah,Michael Jamin:It's exhausting. ItMary Lynn Rajskub:Is exhausting.Michael Jamin:It'sMary Lynn Rajskub:Very bizarre.Michael Jamin:Tell me what it is. Okay, so you go to some city. Let's say you're going to Boston, right? You're flying the night before. What is it really like?Mary Lynn Rajskub:Yeah, you're asking me at a weird time because I just booked a bunch of flights. And some of 'em, if I have a one night or somewhere, I'm not getting paid for four or five shows. What's nice, what's the best is if you can fly in the night before you wake up, you chill out, and you do a whole weekend of shows.Michael Jamin:And then after the last show, you fly back, or do you wait another day?Mary Lynn Rajskub:No, after the last show, you fly back. Well, you have to spend the night, but usually it's like 6:00 AM I'm out the next morning I be home and take the kid to school and pick up the kid from school.Michael Jamin:And what would happen if your flight got caught somewhere or a connecting flight? What would happen if you missed your connecting flight to this show? What happens?Mary Lynn Rajskub:Hey, it's just another day that he stays with his dad and they got to take a coupleMichael Jamin:Of men for you. But you missed the show. I'm saying.Mary Lynn Rajskub:Oh, you're saying if I don't make it to the show?Michael Jamin:Yeah.Mary Lynn Rajskub:Well, that hasn't happened yet.Michael Jamin:Okay.Mary Lynn Rajskub:But yeah. And this time in November, I've got a lot of, there's Portland, there's Alameda, California, there's Sacramento, there's Utah, and they're all within a few days. So I'm doing these little flights, and some of them are the same day of the show. There's one where I get in at 4:00 PM and the show's at seven or eight. And that's just the way it's going toMichael Jamin:Be way it is. But I also think, alright, so exhausting from the travel. I dunno why I'm so stuck on the practicality of this whole thing. But then you have to psych yourself up to go up on stage at whatever, nine o'clock or whatever. Isn't your energy sap by that time? Yeah. What do you do?Mary Lynn Rajskub:I napped before and then I make sure that I have enough time to wake myself up from the nap. And then also, if I'm feeling really dark and low energy, I just let myself go there. If you try to push it away, it just makes it worse.Michael Jamin:So you're about to go on stage and you're fucking exhausted. And then when you go there,Mary Lynn Rajskub:What happens is I've experimented with different versions. I was saying I was real reactive in the past. Sometimes I would get really in my head and I get really quiet, and I've learned techniques. If I'm feeling low, feeling exhausted, I carry that with me on the stage. I'm honest with it. Then I use it. And then it's like little stepladders, you get out of it because you're standing on stage in front of an audience, but it's using the honesty of where you're at. And then that exhaustion oftentimes will turn into annoyance, will turn into anger, will turn into humor. I mean, there's one example where I got booked at, I thought was a club. It was a bar show. It was in a weird part of town. It was honestly very white trashy, for lack of a better word. And I was like, I never drink before shows. And I started drinking. And then by the time I got on stage, I was like, I don't know why I got booked here. I don't know what this is.Michael Jamin:Did you say that as part of your act? Yes, you did.Mary Lynn Rajskub:And they loved it because I was being honest and I took my reality. I was like, what is this? I walked around the building, it's like a dirt parking lot. I don't even know what's happening. Why are you guys here? Why? AndMichael Jamin:That must've depressed when you showed up. You don't deserve me. That's hilarious.Mary Lynn Rajskub:One of the funnest shows ever. And I started categorizing the audience, you guys are, what? Is this over? Okay, you guys are, this is what you're going to do. And I started naming them and oh myMichael Jamin:God,Mary Lynn Rajskub:The guy who went on before me. But again, this is also after many, many shows under my belt. I wouldn't recommend just doing that. But we're talking about addressing this darkness in my soul because I already know a lot of things about myself. Honestly. I know the caliber that I can work at, and I know that I'm not necessarily a super joke Smith wordsmith. You know what I mean? I know my lane and I know my strengths and I know my experience, and I know that I am not just going on stage to be pissed off to shit on them. I know that I'm going to transform it into something. And I have enough experience to know that I can do that.Michael Jamin:That's so funny because you had this awful experience. The worst you show up, this is going to be terrible, and it turns out to be great because you acknowledge it. And were they there to see, I mean, it just seems like you're okay, I'm Chloe. How would I get out of this fucking mess?Mary Lynn Rajskub:Oh, I mean, you're really getting me going. I feel like I'm talking a lot because you're going right into the minutiae. That's very real. Things that become pump the show. When I first started going on the broad proper, 24 was actually still on the air. And I still had this, what was funny to me at least a decade ago was like, I'm uncomfortable. I don't like myself. I had this thought, very self-deprecating, which will never completely go away, but very self-deprecating point humor, which to me was hilarious to expose that. But when I took the stage and they were expecting to see Chloe, it was completely confusing to them going, you're a TV star, you're Chloe. What is this person, this weirdo,Michael Jamin:ThisMary Lynn Rajskub:Interior? I don't remember what the jokes were back then, but I developed, had to, it was like do or die. I had to survive. I had to sink or swim, and next thing you know, I've got a whole 15 minute chunk that's like, oh, you're my Jack Bauer. Oh, you. And I'm like, I'm not really good at computers guys. And I'm just playing because I can feel the energy and they need to be like that guy. He loves Jack Bauer. Oh, you're the Jack Bauer of the show. And I developed jokes within that and ER's not some of it dumb, but because they were so jacked up and only seeing that way that,Michael Jamin:But that's interesting. They have this expectation. It's natural. I guess they're coming to the show. Are they coming to see you now because of Chloe or because of your, what do you think? Why are they coming out? Do you think?Mary Lynn Rajskub:It's a mixture now, and it really is a true mixture. It's people that don't know why they're there that don't know me from anything. It's people that know me from Always Sunny. It's people that know me, Chloe, those two camps want to fight with each other. And it's people who are comedy fans. It's a real mixture.Michael Jamin:Do you feel, this is odd, because this is also, I guess this speaks also to your celebrity, but when you meet someone when they want to meet you, they want to shake your hand, they want to take a picture of you, is there a sense that you're like, did I give you what you wanted?Mary Lynn Rajskub:Oh, yeah.Michael Jamin:What is that like for you?Mary Lynn Rajskub:I just let them say their thingMichael Jamin:And then what? That's all they want. You just let them give 'em a chance to voice what they're, and that's it.Mary Lynn Rajskub:You have to do. And I try to hear back to them their energy, and I try to listen and sort of validate their entry point. Because it depends. Some people are like, oh, my parents showed me 24. Some people are still in 24. There are certain people that watch it over and over again. And then there's other people that are like Gail, the snail,Whatever thing they want to experience. I try to, sometimes people will reference other things and always Sunny, they'll go, oh, I can't even think of it. I don't watch the show. I love them. I think they are top notch. I love all those guys. I love Caitlyn. Known her for a long time. I don't watch, I watch some, but people that watch that show have it memorized and they watch it over and over again and they make references to other things. And then I can see them a little bit. They're a little disappointed where I'm like,Michael Jamin:Isn't that weird?Mary Lynn Rajskub:That thing.Michael Jamin:I get that even from, because we were on King of the Hill for five seasons, and sometimes people fans know the show better than I do, and I worked on it on shows that I worked on. I don't remember them as well. And they do. And I always feel like, I don't know, it's awkward. It's awkward for me. I don't know how I'm supposed to be in speech.Mary Lynn Rajskub:And it's a huge compliment because you know that energy, you're like, yes, that's such a great, the fact that they identify with it and they know it so well is a wonderful thing. But as the person who creates it, you go like, yeah, I did it and then I moved on.Michael Jamin:Yeah,Mary Lynn Rajskub:I'm not living in it, but it's such a beautiful thing when people are fans of stuff. It's just, I can't be there. I got to get a job. You haveMichael Jamin:To be in the president. Exactly. I think that you see this a lot. I mean, he hear about this a lot about stars, who I find, I talked about this a while ago. I saw an old clip of Eve Plum who played Marsha Brady, and she was the Jerry's, I don't know what show. She was on something, maybe Jerry Sprinkler, I don't know. This is whatever, 20 years ago. And then someone from the audience said, they raised their hand. Can you just do it? IMary Lynn Rajskub:Remember that. I think I've seen that clip.Michael Jamin:And she was like, no. She like, she knew what she wanted and she wasn't going to do it. And then she kind of, so the woman was, can you just say, and she wanted her to say, Marsha, Marsha Marcia. And she wouldn't do it. And I felt I didn't blame her at all. I mean, you could see why she didn't want to do it. I didn't blameMary Lynn Rajskub:Her. That's probably for her. She's like, that was,Michael Jamin:Yeah, I was 10. Yeah. I can't pretend like I'm still a 10-year-old. I live in the present, and I don't think people recognize that. And it was a little heartbreaking because she was disappointing them. But you couldn't blame her today. What do you expect?Mary Lynn Rajskub:It is heartbreaking. It goes from being an amazing thing to not cool after for a certain amount of time.Michael Jamin:Does it even for you the same way you mean?Mary Lynn Rajskub:No, I mean, I really don't mind it. And I've learned, for the most part, most people are just really nice. So I'm very lucky. Most people are just like, they love it, and then they say that and then they move on. The only thing that's a little bit frustrating for me is running into a casting director who's thinks I'm still, I mean, this was a few years ago, but she's like, you're on a 24, right? I'm like, no, dude, that's been done for 13 years.Michael Jamin:No one's on 24.Mary Lynn Rajskub:No, speaking of the strike. And I make no residuals. And I made a low amount of money. And people think, because such a high profile show that, oh, you're good, right? You're done. I need to change the image of myself. But whatever.Michael Jamin:You have to constantly, it doesn't end. I think people don't realize that, especially for actors, you have to constantly get work and nothing's a given. I am sure it's a little easier for you because people know that when they hire you, they're going to get a good performance. But it's not like you still got to audition. You still got to go out for stuff. So it's hard. Is it even hard? I mean, it must have much harder in the beginning, getting nos a lot as an actor hearing No. When you auditioned, getting rejected in the beginning, or was that not your case?Mary Lynn Rajskub:I mean, it's not, yeah, the nose is one thing, but I think it's what you were saying earlier, even though you were equating it to standup, for me, it's getting it up again. And some people are better at this, but it's making it a numbers game. But to put it out there per audition over and over again is harder than the nose. And I know theMichael Jamin:Oh, really?Mary Lynn Rajskub:Yeah. It's like, I don't know.Michael Jamin:Do you have that same thing with standup as well, or no?Mary Lynn Rajskub:Here in my control. And more frequently you do it, but it also is a beast because if you take a few days off, it's like, oh, I got to get back in.Michael Jamin:Why do you say that? It's because the business sideMary Lynn Rajskub:And the timing and the rhythmMichael Jamin:AndMary Lynn Rajskub:Being present, it's just a constant. You've got to constantly work out that muscle.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And so you do crowd work as well then It sounds like you interact with them. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have a preference?Mary Lynn Rajskub:No. I mean, I remember there was this one club where the guy, it was, what's that word? Not vanity, but he was retired, but was like, I'm going to start a comedy club, but didn't put all this money into the drywall and the design and the sound, but the audience didn't know why they were there. There was no sense of when you go into an older comedy club, like the Comedy Store or some of these places that have been there forever, the punchline in San Francisco, everyone knows why they're there. The seats are close together, they're facing the stage. They're very simple things, but it's hard to create that like, oh, we go here to see comedy. And that gets lost a lot lately. And there was a new club, and I remember it was like Whack-a-Mole where I'm teaching them how to focus. We're at a show and these women, they're drinking like they're at a bar and they're talking to each other. And I'm like, oh. And I got off the stage, walked into the audience and was like, oh yeah, you guys. And they're like, we're divorced too, and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, yeah, we're the same, but you know what I wouldn't do. Go to your show and then act like I was at a bar. And they were like, oh. And they shut up. But IMichael Jamin:Butt that. So strange. That's the problem with standup. It's different when you're doing standup in front of a whatever. You sell a theater and you sell a lot of tickets. And when you're in a club, people might be there just to socialize with their fucking friends. And so it's a whole different thing, man. It's a whole different level of, they could be hostile. I don't know. That kind of stuff worries me a little bit. And I didn't stand up when I was much younger, but I wasn't thinking it through enough.Mary Lynn Rajskub:What happened? Tell me about it.Michael Jamin:Oh, I don't know. I just did it. Maybe you've heard there's a club. I was from New York, so there's a couple of clubs nearby. I would do it on the weekends and stuff, and I didn't, colleges shows and stuff like that. But at some point I was like, you know what? I'd rather, what's the end goal? I have to be on the road. Or if I become a comedy writer, then I can just stay in one place and I can go to sleep at a decent hour. So that's what my thinking was, how toMary Lynn Rajskub:Be a comedy writer at the beginning. How did you learn how to edit down on the page?Michael Jamin:Yeah, that's really hard because it's a different thing. I had took some classes and then I teamed up with Seabert, and then we started writing more scripts together. And then you have to learn story structure. That's the hardest thing there is. But even I remember driving out here from New York after I graduated thinking, okay, think of something funny. What the fuck? No, it doesn't work that way, man. I didn't have a voice. That's why I was talking. I didn't know.Mary Lynn Rajskub:So how did you find your voice?Michael Jamin:The voice thing? Well, when you're writing on a TV show, you don't, you find the voice of you, the actor you're writing for, or you find the voice for the characters that are already there, not supposed to have your voice. You're supposed to have their voice. And so when I was writing my book, maybe you can see it. So I wrote this book and I've been performing on it. So this is why I'm so curious to talk to performers. And the whole process of finding my voice was really scary. In the beginning. It was like, well, what can I write on my own without an executive giving me notes without, and then finding your voice meant just being honest. And that was really hard.Mary Lynn Rajskub:It was like, it feels like the wrong answer. Just be honest. Boom.Michael Jamin:Well be honest with who you are. You have to speak the truth. You have to be vulnerable. But there are times, as I've been performing two theaters, so it's not standup because that's different. You're selling tickets and people are friendly. But there have been times before I go up every show, I kind of say to myself, why am I doing this again? I'm getting 'em nervous. Why am I doing this?Mary Lynn Rajskub:You're back in it. You're performing.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. We'll just see where it takes me.Mary Lynn Rajskub:And have you done a lot of, are you on the road?Michael Jamin:Well, I've done, we did, I don't know, maybe I think eight shows in LA in a couple in Boston, and then I'm waiting for the book to drop. Then I'll go back on the road again and we'll see where I can sell tickets. That's the hard We'll see. We'll see. People say they want to see me. Well, we'll see. Because you're literally selling one ticket at a time. You're like, you're talking about, Hey, come see me Boston. And you look at the ticket sales, oh, there's a sale. Then you do another post and then another ticket sale. So it's hard. Everything's hard now. Is that your experience at all? Is any of this your experience?Mary Lynn Rajskub:No, my shit is just, I'm just really selling out everywhere.Michael Jamin:Do you promote a lot? Is that what the podcast is for? AtMary Lynn Rajskub:Woo. You do on all platforms at that. Okay. Sorry, what'd you say?Michael Jamin:No. Is that what the podcast is for? To help let people know you're coming to their city or something?Mary Lynn Rajskub:Yeah. And because Jeffrey does feature for me, I mean, that would be really, again, pretty dreamy. If it's kind of all is starts part of the same package that people could listen to it, hear us, come see us live.Michael Jamin:Right. You could even do your podcast live. Is that something you want to do?Mary Lynn Rajskub:Yeah. I mean, no, at this point, it depends.Michael Jamin:How many episodes are you dropping? You do one a week or something. And do you shoot it? Where do you record it?Mary Lynn Rajskub:We record it in Sun Valley.Michael Jamin:In Sun Valley?Mary Lynn

On this week's episode, I have actor Chris Gorham, (Out of Practice, The Lincoln Lawyer, NCIS: Los Angeles and many many more) and we dive into the origins of his career. We also discuss the work-life balance he has with his family and some of the things he wishes more actors were aware of while filming. There is so much more, so tune in.Show NotesChris Gorham on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chrisgorham/Chris Gorham IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0330913/Chris Gorham on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_GorhamMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptChris Gorham:But in getting to know them and talking to them, Almost all of them had day jobs, like worked for the city, Worked, worked for construction crews. They had full-on-day Jobs. Some of them were Entrepreneurs, some of them worked in government. And that was a New idea to me because that hadn't been my experience here. But as the income and equality has increased so dramatically, It feels like that's where our business has been going, where everybody has to have another,Michael Jamin:You are listening to, what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity. I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts.Chris Gorham:Like my backdrop, this is my, oh, I love it. Official SAG after LA delegate backdrop that we used him during the convention.Michael Jamin:I know you're a big show. We're starting already. I'm here with Chris Gorham, and he is an actor I worked with many years ago on a show called Out of Practice. He's one of the stars that was a show with starting Henry Winkler, stocker Channing, Ty Burrell, Chris Gorham, and Paul Marshall. It was a great show on CBS and only lasted a season. But Chris, Chris is about as successful working actors as you can, short of being like someone like Brad Pitt, who's known across the world. You've done a ton of TV shows, and I'm going to blow through them real fast here.Chris Gorham:Okay. You can, I can't talk about them still, but your strike is over so you can,Michael Jamin:Yeah, right, because Chris is, I guess he's in sag and actually you're one of the members, you're one of the, what do you call yourself, the king? SoChris Gorham:I'm the king of SAG aftra. No, I was elected to be on the LA local board and also elected as a delegate. So that's what this background was. Our official LA delegate background forMichael Jamin:The research delegate for for the model. What does that meanChris Gorham:For the convention? Yeah. It's kind of reminiscent of Model un. So it's the convention that happens every two years where all the delegates get together and we elect the executive vice president, and there's certain offices that get elected by the delegate membership.Michael Jamin:I don't think we have that in the Writer's Guild. I think we have a direct democracy. You, I guess have a representative democracy.Chris Gorham:Yeah. Yeah. It's a much bigger union. How bigMichael Jamin:Is it? How big do you know? AboutChris Gorham:160,000 members.Michael Jamin:Wow. Okay. Members, but that's active members. And what do you have to be to be an active member?Chris Gorham:What do you have to be? DoMichael Jamin:You have to sell? You have to work a certain amount or something?Chris Gorham:No, once you're in, you can stay in as long as you pay your duesMichael Jamin:Every year. Oh, okay. But then that doesn't mean you get health. You have to qualify for health insurance and stuff like that. Correct.Chris Gorham:Well, it's a big part of the strike. It's one of our big talking points really is only about 13% and just under 13% earn enough to qualify for our healthcare plan. And I mean, that's only about $26,700 a year to qualify for healthcare.Michael Jamin:That's a big deal. I mean, healthcare, healthcare. So most people don't realize this, and it seems so naive to say this, but I get so many comments when on social media, all these actors are millionaires. Dude, what are you talking about? You can be a working actor and book two gig. You're lucky if you do two gigs a year. AndChris Gorham:Well listen, it goes to the heart of what this strike is about is that it's worse than people even think because just to what's the best way to talk about it? So a big part of our asked during this negotiation is a big increase in the contributions to our health and pension plan by the producers. And the reason is that they haven't increased it in a long, long, long, long time. So for instance, one person could work, let's say you got hired to do an episode and got paid very well, right? For one episode. Let's say you're getting it, it's an anthology show. They're paying the top two people like series regulars, and you're getting a hundred grand for one episode. So you would think a hundred thousand dollars. That is a lot of money for one episode. If I'm doing that, I am clear. Definitely qualify. You do not qualify for healthcare because you've only done one episode and the producers only have to contribute up to a certain amount. So even though you've made a hundred grand in one episode, you still have to book another job, at least one moreMichael Jamin:And clear,Chris Gorham:Not going to qualify for healthcare.Michael Jamin:I've produced a lot of shows. I don't recall ever paying a guest star anywhere close to a hundred thousand an episode. No, not even close.Chris Gorham:No, no. And the minimums have, right now, I think for a drama, the minimum's around $9,000, maybe a little more than that for an episode for top of Show guest start like the top paid guest shows on those shows. Yeah, you can't. And it's become almost impossible to negotiate a rate higher than the minimums.Michael Jamin:You can have a quote and they go, well, that's too bad. This is what we're paying you.Chris Gorham:Correct. This is what we're paying you.Michael Jamin:Let me just run through some of yours so people know who we're talking about because some people are listening to it. So Chris is, I'm going to blow some of his bigger parts, but he works so much. So let's start with Party of Five where you did four episodes, which I love that show. I just had to mention that, but of course, popular. You did a ton of those. Felicity, remember that? Odyssey five, Jake 2.0, which you started in medical investigation out of practice, which I mentioned Harper's Island Ugly Betty, Betty Laa, which I loved, of course, covert Affairs and what else? I'm going through your list here. Full Circle two Broke Girls. You worked with two of the broke girls and insatiable the Lincoln lawyer, and that doesn't include any of your guest chart. So you are incredibly successful actor and you've strung, actually, I want to hit on something. Sure. So this is a little embarrassing on my part. We had a technical, this is our second interview because I had technical errors on my point. I'm not that good with technology, even though I've done well over a hundred episodes of this, and Chris graciously allowed me to do this over. But one of the things that you said, the thing that struck me the most during our last talk, which I found incredibly interesting and humble, I said to you, Chris, how do you choose your roles? And do you remember what you said to me?Chris Gorham:Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah. I said, I should be so lucky. Yeah. The reality is, it's like actors like me. I've had a lot of conversations with actors like me who star on television shows, multiple television shows, and we all joke about how many times we've been asked in interviews. The questionMichael Jamin:Really,Chris Gorham:Why did you choose this to be your next project?Michael Jamin:Right. Well, I wanted to eat. That's why.Chris Gorham:Yeah, yeah. Because I think journalists sometimes forget, and they think that we're all to use your example, Brad Pitt, and that we're being sent scripts and we get to choose what our next project is, but in reality, that is not at all. What happens, what happens for the vast majority of us is we are sent auditions. Sometimes we get the scripts, sometimes we don't. And we put ourselves now what used to be going to the casting office. Now we put ourselves on tape and we send it off into the void, and we hope that we get hired.Michael Jamin:And you'll work on a part. When you do get the script, how long will you spend preparing for that before you submit your tape?Chris Gorham:Oh, it depends mostly on two things. One, how many pages it is, and then it depends on how well written it's, to be honest. You've heard this before.Michael Jamin:Go ahead. Tell me.Chris Gorham:The better the writing, the easier it is to memorize.Michael Jamin:Right. And explain why that is.Chris Gorham:Well, the reason is is because it makes sense. If it's written like a human being talks, then the next sentence follows from the sentence before. If you understand the emotion of what's going on, then it just makes sense and the dialogue flows and it's just so much easier to memorize. The stuff that's always the hardest is when you're the character that's laying pipe and you're just spewing out exposition and it's not really coming. Listen, the good writers are always trying to tie it down to that emotional reality, but sometimes you got to lay pipe, and that's stuff's always the hardest, particularly if it's a bunch of medical jargon or legal jargon. That kind of stuff is crazy.Michael Jamin:And what people don't also realize, I think, is when you're starting out an actor, oh, I could play everything. I could play a villain. I could play a teacher, I could play a biker, I could play a doctor. That's fine when you're in your high school play, but in Hollywood, you're going to be cast the part that you are closest to because if not, we will cast someone who looks like a biker or who was a biker, and we'll cast someone who looks like a doctor. Right? Yeah. So you have to figure out who you are, basically.Chris Gorham:Yeah. Well, it's one of the, I went to theater school at UCLA and I was very lucky because during my freshman year, they decided to start a conservatory program within the theater program there. So we all auditioned and I got into this conservatory program. So for my last three years, it was conservatory training, and I still got my bachelor of arts degree from UCLA. It was the best of both worlds. One of the things that I felt like a few years out after having it is I wished they had spent a little bit more time helping us learn how to act like ourselves. You spend so much time in theater school, learning how to stretch your creativity, working on your voice, working on your body movement, body awareness, vocal awareness, and then learning how to play all these different kinds of parts and all the plays you're doing. All the parts are filled from college students. So sometimes you're playing an old man, sometimes you're playing a young woman who knows. But the second you start auditioning for roles professionally, you're only going to be seen for roles that you physically look like. And so it's really important to quickly learn if you haven't already, how to be you. Right. How do you do that version of you?Michael Jamin:Where do you begin with that?Chris Gorham:Well, it takes practice. We used to do an exercise. It was in one of the very beginning acting classes. In fact, I didn't even take this acting class. I was observing, I think my senior year, one of the grad students was teaching it. And it was just as simple as everybody got in circle and instead of being crazy and dancing like a tree or whatever, it was literally, it was just walk across. Just walk from point A to point B. Just you just don't do anything. Just walk from what, and you would be surprised how difficult that can be becauseMichael Jamin:You become self-conscious of what you'reChris Gorham:Exactly right. You become and you feel like you should do something mean. And especially for a bunch of theater kids who've kind of grown up in their theater school, all high schools and stuff all over, it's all about being big, and it's all about the jokes and getting attention and to let all of that go and just be in the market is a very difficult thing for a lot of people. But it's super, super important. And that carries through forever. Just being just be there. You don't have to do anything, particularly when you have a camera on you, and particularly when it's time for your closeup, you don't have to do a lot. You just have to be there and be present and alive in the scene.Michael Jamin:But so much, I think some people, they greatly underestimate how difficult acting is because it looks like make-believe and whatever. We're just, you're having fun on the camera, but to be in the moment, especially when the cameras are on you and everyone's watching in, go hurry up and go, because we've set up the scene for half hour and we want you to shoot it now. And it's so hard to stay in the moment, I think. So how do you stay in the moment when you become conscious that you're actingChris Gorham:Now? If I become conscious that I'm acting now, I'll just stop.Michael Jamin:You willChris Gorham:Often I'll just stop and say, can we start over? Can we just go back to the top because for whatever reason, and then go again. Because if I'm conscious, then I'm not in a scene, then it's not going to work and they're not going to be able to use it. So I would just stop and go back. I mean, it's the great advantage of film, right?Michael Jamin:But you do much theater anymore, because that's different when you're on stage.Chris Gorham:I only feel like benefits and things for years. We're rehearsing for one this weekend, we're doing the Girls Benefit to raise money for breast cancer research.Michael Jamin:So it's one show.Chris Gorham:It's one show. I mean, for me, I've been a single income family of five for almost 23 years. So with that, I haven't able to afford to go and do theater, but I miss it. I love it. I did two weeks, 14 years ago, I did two weeks in Spalding Gray Stories left to Tell in New York off Broadway.Michael Jamin:Really? So you were Spalding Gray, I mean, it's a one man show,Chris Gorham:Right? Yeah, yeah. Well, it's a one man show split into five different personalities. So it's different parts of him. And so the business part, they would swap out celebrities every two weeks. And so I came in and did that for two weeks, and it was the best.Michael Jamin:And this was in New York?Chris Gorham:Yeah.Michael Jamin:That's amazing. How did something like that come up? How do you get that?Chris Gorham:I don't know. I don't remember. I don't mean it must've come through my agents or my manager. I don't remember. I don't remember.Michael Jamin:Wow. How interesting.Chris Gorham:Because now, I was just going to say now, it's been so long since I've done, I've become, I'm so out of the loop of LA theater in particular, which is kind of more feasible for me at this point, just because it's close and easy. I don't even really know how to get back in. In fact, one of my youngest was doing a summer theater camp at Annoys Within, and it's close to where we are. So I was trying to figure out, I reached out to my manager, I was like, Hey, is really close. Is there, are they doing anything that would make sense for me to do something with them over there? They were like, yeah, that's a great idea. And they never heard anything. So I just emailed them my photo and resume with a letter, and I never heard anything back. So I literally, I don't even know how to approach getting cast in theater anymore,Michael Jamin:Because your agent, there's not enough money for your agent to work on it.Chris Gorham:They couldn't be less interested.Michael Jamin:I'm always curious how that works. We just saw a show at the Pasadena Playhouse and I was like, well, how do these actors, how do they, yeah, ifChris Gorham:You find out, let me know the Playhouse also write down the street. It'd be amazing.Michael Jamin:Yeah, there's always some, but then again, you would have to commit to something. And during that time period, let's say it was two months, you can't take other work you've committed and something big could come along, who knows? IChris Gorham:Mean, maybe. But also that is, you live with that fear all the time, no matter whatMichael Jamin:Do you mean even if you're on a show, you mean?Chris Gorham:Well, not if you're on a show, then you're working well, then you worry about the show being canceled and then that you're never going to work again. But when you're not working, well, this brings up two thoughts. One is there's a fear of taking something that's not the big thing, because you are afraid that if you do this smaller thing that it's going to conflict with the big thing that might be just around the court. And the other thought that it brings up is I talked with so many actors over the years who are not working and are really struggling and feel paralyzed about going to try and do anything else because there's this intense peer pressure that, well, you can't quit. You can't quit now that your moment, it might be just around the corner, it might be the next audition.Michael Jamin:You mean quit Hollywood and do something for a different career, youChris Gorham:Mean? Yeah, go do something else. You got to hang in. You got to hang in. And I feel like it's a really difficult balancing act because the truth is that this business is really, really hard to go back to the strike. It's gotten increasingly difficult to the point where it's almost impossible with an actor to make a living, to be able to raise a family, to be able to put your kids through college and those kind of life things that are important to so many of us.Michael Jamin:And I know, and that's why you fight and that's why you fight. And that's why it's so people think, well, so what for actors? But the problem is like you're saying, if actors can't make a living in between or you're starring in a show, that's great, but the show will probably get canceled up to one season. But you still need to keep a healthy talent pool of actors who can continue to keep a living, because if they can't, they're going to leave. And then how are you going to cast as writers and producers? How do you cast this part if there's not a healthy talent pool? That'sChris Gorham:It. That's it. We can't continue paying the stars these massive, massive, massive amounts of money and having everybody else working on these tiny minimums because it's unsustainable. The best and the brightest of us that haven't won the lottery are going to go do other things because there's more to life and life. You can be an actor without pursuing it as a career.Michael Jamin:But I haven't heard those notions come up at all. Maybe I'm not just tuned in, but the idea of, well, maybe we're paying the stars too much, or has that been a discussion at all?Chris Gorham:I mean, I have that discussion. Yeah. Oh, really? Well, yeah, because it's not that, well, certainly for me, and not so much from my personal experience, but just from my kind of bleeding heart observations of this business, when you see movies, it's why, like I've said for a long time, the only way now to make a living in this business is if you're a star or a series regular on a TV show.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yes, I agree with that. It's theChris Gorham:Only way because all of the supporting cast, none of the supporting cast makes enough money to make a consistent living in this business because your stars get massive amounts of money. Everyone else is working scale, and the minimums have not risen nearly enough to make it enough. And the stars, well, this is the excuse the studios use, is that they're paying the stars so much. There's no money left to pay anybody else over scale, so no one else can negotiate over scale. And in tv it's a similar thing. So it just makes it very difficult.Michael Jamin:And not only that, LA has always been an expensive city to live, but now it's crazy. It's like crazy. I can't afford, if I hadn't bought my house when I did it, I couldn't even come close to affording this house and have a middle class house. It's something special about it. So these are the issues that actors are fighting over. Yeah, it's an important, it's so interesting when you hear your friends or colleagues thinking about leaving, do they tell you what they're going to do or what they want to do? It's such a hard thing when you're middle aged, what are you going to do?Chris Gorham:Right. No, it's true. It's true. No, I have some friends that have gone into teaching.Michael Jamin:Okay.Chris Gorham:Yeah. Most of my actor friends are still around. Have one friend who started the business ages ago and still runs that business while she's worked periodically as an actor throughout all of these years. And she still works frequently, but her main income is from this business that she created. Right.Michael Jamin:She's very, so you got to be entrepreneurial, basically. Yeah.Chris Gorham:Yeah. It's funny. I did a movie early in my career where we shot in Tonga and New Zealand, and we had a lot of New Zealand actors were working on this film and in talk, and some of them were quite famous in New Zealand. They were working on this famous New Zealand TV show, like legitimate celebrities. But in getting to know them and talking to them, almost all of them had day jobs, worked for the city, worked, worked in construction crews. They have full on day jobs. Some of them were entrepreneurs, some of them worked in government. And that was a new idea to me because that hadn't been my experience here. But as the income inequality has increased so dramatically, it feels like that's where our business has been going, where everybody has to have another gig.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Chris Gorham:It didn't used to be that way. And I don't think that it has to be that way.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I agree with you. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely, yeah, it seems very unfair. It doesn't seem, well, I mean, I guess all things is fair about being an actor. Being an actor has always been a pursuit of like, well, is there anything else you could do? Then choose that? But true, it seems like now it's like, I don't know. What do you do? What recommend then for people, young kids or kids, whatever, 20 year olds who considering getting into the business?Chris Gorham:Yeah, I mean, that advice I think is evergreen. That if you can go do something else as a career, absolutely do something else as a career. Oftentimes the advice I give is when you're young, spend a lot less time thinking about what you want to be when you grow up and spend a lot more time thinking about what kind of life you want to live when you grow up, what kind of things do you want to do? And then you can find career paths that will allow you to live the kind of life you want to live. And it becomes less obsessed with having a certain job.Michael Jamin:Well, that's something to consider. So for you as a working actor, sometimes you'll be on location, you might be in a different city. Is that something you away from your family, which is hard as you were raised in a family, is that something you considered? Is that something you would reconsider now?Chris Gorham:I had no idea. I grew up in Fresno, California. My mom was a school nurse. My dad was an accountant. They didn't know what to do with me, and I didn't know anything about the business. I wanted to be. Yeah, I didn't know. Yeah. I had no idea. And so my first, and I was very fortunate. I got out of school, I started, I got my union card in 1996, the year I got out of school was booking occasional guest stars on things. My first job was one scene in a movie with two big movie stars, big famous director. It was awesome. And then I booked my first series just three years after school. Cool. And it was shot at Disney. It was like 10 minutes away from our little place we were renting. And then it was canceled and it came out of nowhere. And then I was very fortunate again. I booked another series two weeks later, but that one shot until longMichael Jamin:AndChris Gorham:I had no idea what that meant. And I left to do that pilot six weeks after our first born son, our firstborn was born. So my wife, anal had no idea what no idea we were doing. Suddenly we had a newborn baby, six weeks old, and then I'm gone for five weeks. It was extraordinarily difficult.Michael Jamin:I apologize. Something must be open and I have to shut it down because someone's, I'm sorry.Chris Gorham:Oh, no worries. Okay.Michael Jamin:I thought everything shut. But yeah, so to continue, so that's heartbreaking. You have a brand new baby and you're out of town. You left here.Chris Gorham:Yeah. It was hard. And we didn't, because we didn't grow up here, so we had no experience. I don't know how to do this. And no one was really kind explaining to us, okay, this is how you get through this. These are the different ways you can do it. These are the options. You know what I mean? I didn't have anybody, I didn't have a mentor or somebody guiding me in how to do this thing.Michael Jamin:But at any point in your career, you must, because worked for so many actors, you must have at some point found someone a little older and wiser. Right?Chris Gorham:Well, the closest thing we had was Anelle had Stacey Winkler. It was really sweet. Anelle used to sit next to Stacey Winkler at every taping, and they would just talk and Stacey would give her advice, and it was great. One week, Anelle come to the taping, and the next week Stacey scolded her and was like, you have to be here every week and let everyone know that that is your husband.Michael Jamin:Interesting. I remember she came to, I think every out of practice,Chris Gorham:Everyone.Michael Jamin:So why is it about staking your territory? What was that? Or is this being supportive?Chris Gorham:What was it? No, I think it was both, but I think partly staking your territory. I was the young guy, the young handsome guy on this show, and it's a CVS show, and so she was like, you need to be here. But then it was also she said, but then he's the star here at work. You have to make sure that when you get home, the kids are the star, not him. You have to make it veryMichael Jamin:Clear. Was there a difficulty for you? Is it hard to go home and not be the star? What was that like?Chris Gorham:I had gotten pretty good at it, certainly by then. But I would imagine looking back in the beginning, it's kind of that power corrupt and absolute power. Corrupt absolutely. Of course can go to your head when you are getting a little famous and you're making some money. And when you're at work, you are catered to, you're one of the stars of the show. You're catered to a handed foot. Everything's taken care of. I've described it as series regulars are treated like fancyMichael Jamin:Babies on set.Chris Gorham:Don't upset the babies. You need to keep them safe at all times. You need to keep them comfortable at all times. You don't want them crying. You don't want them cranky. You need to keep them fully regulated because when everything's ready to roll, we need the fancy babies to be able to perform. And as soon as they're done, we want them to go back to their cribs slash trailers so that then the grownups can finish getting everything ready for the next shot.Michael Jamin:And imagine giving this kind of pressure to a child actor. I mean, have you worked with many child actors?Chris Gorham:Yeah, many over the years, and I can say almost all of it. Almost all of it's been a good experience. I haven't had any total nightmares with child doctors. That being said, every parent that's asked us about getting their kid into the business, we have always advised against it. And we didn't encourage any of our kids to get into it.Michael Jamin:It's rough. I haven't worked with many child, I just haven't been on shows with a lot of kids. And I am glad because I have a feeling I would when a kid is messing around on set in between takes or just not being professional because they're acting like children the way they are supposed to act. In my mind I would be thinking, stop fucking around. This is work. I know that's what I would be thinking, which is an awful thing to put on a child. But that's what you're paying them a lot of money to do. It's a hard position. I don't know. I just feel for those kids, I just feel like, yeah, I know. That's where Ill be thinking. Hopefully I wouldn't be saying it. Yeah,Chris Gorham:It's difficult. It's very, I mean, sets are, they're not for kids. They're an adult work environments, which by the way, some adult working actors need to be reminded occasionally that these are adult working environments. This is not your personal playground. But yeah, it's a difficult environment for kids. So I mean, you need them. So I'm grateful that they're there.Michael Jamin:I think that too sometimes. Sometimes I'll see an actor goofing around too much, and we're all, I'm like, dude, let's get out of here. All the crew wants to go home. They've been working 12 hour days for the past week and a half. They want to go home too.Chris Gorham:Well, let me tell you, this is one of the things where with every showrunner that I've become friendly with, I highly encourage them, if at all possible, to bring their series regulars behind the curtain and bring them to at least one production meeting that show them how the sausage really gets made, expose them to all of the other incredibly creative, intelligent, wonderful people who make up this team that makes the TV show or the film. Because then they get to see, because as cast, especially as the stars of the show or the film, you really are treated as if you are the most important cog in this machine. And it's really helpful, I think, and just the team morale, if actors understand that they are a very important cog in that machine, but just one of the cogs in the machine. YouMichael Jamin:Said you learned this, I think when you first were directing, you started directing episodes of the shows, you weren't, right?Chris Gorham:Yeah. I had think a basic actor's understanding of how things work on set. And I'm not to blow my own horn. I'm generally a nice person. So I'm kind to people. I'm nice to everybody on set. I learned people's names. I generally understood what people did, but only when I started directing did I really understand just how incredible the whole ensemble is and how much the rest of the team has to offer and is contributing to the show or the film. It was just a level of respect that I don't think I could really have until I was allowed behind the curtain to see how it was happening. So whatMichael Jamin:Would you recommend? Would you recommend that every week one actor attends a production meeting? Is that what you're saying?Chris Gorham:Listen, that's one way to do it. Right. However it works for that showrunner, for that production, I would just encourage them because I just feel like so often, and I think, I don't know if it's true now, but I've talked to showrunners in the past that have talked about the show and the training program and about the message they got was to keep the cast at arm's length. Really? Yeah. And there certainly can be good reasons for doing that. I can understand why that sometimes makes the job easier, certainly, and sometimes maybe makes it possible. But I just think there's more to gain by bringing them in to letting them see, really meet the whole team and get to know the whole team. And because there's just, I mean, truly, you see what the set designers do, and you see what the customers do, and you see, we get to understand how lighting works. You know what I mean? It's just how hard the ads work on putting together with the schedule and learn why the schedule gets put way put together the way it gets put together. And once you understand it, then maybe you're a little less mad about having to be last in on Friday, two weeks in a row.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Chris Gorham:You see, it's like they're not out to get you. They are trying to accommodate you, and you are not the only factor that is being accommodated.Michael Jamin:You're talking about the writers now?Chris Gorham:No, I was talking about the cast look, in regards to schedule casting,Michael Jamin:Very, very frustratedChris Gorham:About scheduling.Michael Jamin:Oh, I see. Yeah, that's always right. I can see why that would be frustrating. So what happens? You get a call sheet and you're told to come in whatever, 8:00 AM and they don't get to shoot your part until 1:00 PM and you're like, why did they call me in so early? And sometimes it just happens. It works out that wayChris Gorham:Sometimes. Yeah. They're trying. They're trying. And sometimes it just doesn't work out. And with the scripts, with writers, it's a similar kinds of thing. It's like once you understand how many chefs are in the kitchen of getting these scripts, these stories broken, and then these scripts written how many notes the writer has gotten about their script from the studio and then from the network before it ever gets to the cast.Michael Jamin:You're making me anxious just talking about it. No joke.Chris Gorham:Sorry. And then that's why as a cast member, when you then go to the writer and say, Hey, can I ask you about this? Your writer looks like they're dying a little inside.Michael Jamin:Yeah. No, no, I can't do that.Chris Gorham:And it's like, so the best writers that I've worked with have always been very organized about how actors give notes. They're like, if we're doing table reads on a show, they'll be like, look, we're going to do the table read. Everybody's got 24 hours to give whatever notes or feedback you've got about the script. And then after that, we're considering it locked. Please respect that once you're on. The idea being that you don't want to spend a lot of time on the day when you're there waiting to shoot, talking about suddenly having questions about the scene and asking it to be rewritten. That's not the term.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it's not. And because we have to get next week's script and next week's script is a disaster. I'm telling you, it's in terrible shape. That's how it always is.So you want to worry about this. What about the crashing plane out there? That's going to be, I remember, I have to show, I can't remember if I mentioned this last time we spoke, but one of my favorite experiences of working in Hollywood was when I was an out of practice, and I can't remember what I was doing. I think the showrunner, Chris, I think he had me deliver pages up to the actress. It was show night right before the show, and I don't know why it was made, but for some reason, I remember carrying a couple of scripts to the dressing room maybe an hour before the showtime, and you guys were all there, the whole cast, and you're holding hands. And Henry's like, come on, Michael, come on in, come on. And I'm like, what's going on right here? And you're all just holding hands. And he goes, and he invited me in. I'm like, but I'm a writer. What do you mean? No, grab some hands. So I remember taking who, who's hands? I don't know, but I'm in the middle. I'm with a circle. I'm holding hands. I'm like, what is going on here? And then you guys did, I don't know what you would call it, but it was some kind of, it'sChris Gorham:Like a little vocal warmup or something. No,Michael Jamin:It was almost like a blessing. It was like a blessing. It was almost like, what's it, we are here to, I am curious if you've done this since then. It was like, we are here to support each other. We're going to have a wonderful show. We're all together. We're a family. And it was almost spiritual. It was very, I guess you haven't done that. You don't remember this.Chris Gorham:I remember doing that. I

On this week's episode, I have from the Youtube channel "Tasting History", Max Miller. Tune in as we about the origins of what made him start this channel as well as his New York Times best-selling cookbook "Tasting History: Explore the Past through 4,000 Years of Recipes (A Cookbook)." We also dive into the complications of trying to be successful on all forms of social media.Show NotesMax Miller on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tastinghistorywithmaxmiller/Max Miller on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@tastinghistoryMax Miller on YouTube:  @TastingHistory Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptMax Miller:A lot of people are like, this feels like an old PBS show. Yeah,Michael Jamin:It's classier. Yeah,Max Miller:It is classier. And so I'm like, I don't think the thumbnail where I'm on there going, would, you're not going to, because the video is not going to deliver on that. That's not what the video is. And so then it is clickbait, and I hate thatMichael Jamin:You're listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity, I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts.Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to another episode of, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Well, today I'm talking about as always, people who are doing creative things who have invented themselves creatively. And so my next guest has done just that. He's tasting history with Max Miller. He is the host, and tasting history is a really interesting channel. Well, actually I'll get to it, but he's got 2 million subscribers, which is gigantic on YouTube. So Max, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining me.Max Miller:Thank you for having me. Excited.Michael Jamin:I am so inspired by what you're doing. So basically your show, for those who don't know, it's a cooking show, but it's also, he talks about it's historical cooking, so what they made in ancient Greece or whatever, or what prisoners ate, whatever. And so it's also, it's cooking, but it's also educational, which I find it's such an interesting little niche you have, and yet it's blown up.Max Miller:Yeah, it's crazy. I actually always say I have a history show where I cook because it's really to focus more on the history than anything else. Well, tell me, howMichael Jamin:Did this all start?Max Miller:It started, well, it kind of started with a great British bakeoff. When that show first came out, actually before it even came out here in the us, I got obsessed with it and started baking everything that they had on it, and that's really how I learned how to bake. But they would always talk about the history of the dishes that they were baking. They don't do that anymore. And so I would bring my baked goods into work. I was working at Disney, the movie studio at the time, and I would bring in the baked goods and tell all of my coworkers a little bit about the history. And then one of my coworkers was like, you know what? Go tell someone else. These little anecdotes, put it up on YouTube, find an audience. And so that's what I did. Wait, were youMichael Jamin:Trying to pitch it to Disney? Is that why?Max Miller:No, no. It was more that I just needed something creative to do my job at Disney. I loved it, but it wasn't super creative, at least not my creative thing. I was creating stuff for other people.Michael Jamin:What were you doing then at Disney?Max Miller:I had been working in marketing, so I had worked on the trailers and stuff like that. And then in the months before the pandemic, really, I was working in sales, selling our movies to the theaters, which was actually a lot of fun and challenging, but not super creative in the way that I like to be.Michael Jamin:But tell me, so you're not familiar, you moved to LA for what reason thenMax Miller:To do voiceoverMichael Jamin:To be a voiceover actor?Max Miller:Yeah, I had been in New York doing musical theater for eight years, and New York is exhausting. And I decided, you know what? I need a slower pace of life. So I moved out here and I had a few friends out here and I wanted to do voiceover. I was always much more comfortable behind a mic than I was on stage or in front of a camera. And so I was like, okay, animation, that's the way to go. And so I did that for a little while. Did youMichael Jamin:Have much success at it?Max Miller:It's funny you ask. So in animation, no. I did a few little things and in commercial, couple little things, but where I ended up getting a lot of work was in audio books because I have the voice of, especially then of a 16-year-old boy. And so I was doing a lot of YA audio books. Interesting.Michael Jamin:See, this is so interesting. Okay, so you were an actor trying to get even more acting gigs and you must have become alright. It's good that you made some money doing voiceover for books, but it doesn't sound like you were as accomplished as you wanted to be. Is that right?Max Miller:Yeah, no, I mean, I always had to be working at a restaurant or I started temping at Disney, and then that just turned into a full-time job. But yeah, I never made a full living for more than six months at a time. I always had to call back.Michael Jamin:So you were, as I talk about this a lot, actors and writers the same thing. Help me get in the door, help me do the, everyone's always begging for an opportunity. Get me in, please let me, and then I guess at some point you just decided, I'm tired of asking. I'm just going to do something that I want to do. And this is what happens when you put energy into something, you created your own little thing and you blew up.Max Miller:Yeah, no, I mean that's the amazing thing about YouTube and TikTok and Instagram. You couldn't do this 15, 20 years ago, or at least you could do it. It was just nobody would have a place to watch you do it. Now, it's not easy, but it's available. It's an option.Michael Jamin:From what I see your show, everyone should again check it out. Tasting history with Max Miller, it seems like it's really well produced and it seems like this is a TV show, but it's free on the internet. That's what I see when I look at it.Max Miller:Well, thank you. All I notice is, oh, my lighting this week was terrible or, oh God, there's a typo on the screen. I only notice all the mistakes that I make. ButMichael Jamin:Do you shoot this? It's in chat in the kitchen. Is the kitchen in your house?Max Miller:Yep.Michael Jamin:It's your kitchen and it's lit. Do you have a team helping you or you doing this all your own on your own?Max Miller:It's all me. YouMichael Jamin:Have no one helping you.Max Miller:I don't want to say no one helps me because my husband does the subtitles and he reads all the scripts beforehand to make sure that it's coherent, because once in a while I'll say something and he's like, what is this? And I'm like, everyone knows what that is. And he's like, no, everyone doesn't. So then I fix up. What aboutMichael Jamin:Editing and stuff?Max Miller:So I just in the last couple months brought on someone to help me with some of the editing. I still end up doing all the images and a lot of that, but she's fantastic and has cut down the major part of the editing for me because that was, I mean, I would spend 15 hours, 12 to 15 hours each episode just editing. And now it's maybe four. AMichael Jamin:Lot of that. Now you use a lot of time, I imagine, to research and to prep and to practice these recipes you're doing. Is that right?Max Miller:Yeah, research is definitely the most intensive part. It's also my favorite part though. It's probably depending on the episode, anywhere from 12 to 20 hours of research and then kind of crafting the script.Michael Jamin:So this is your full-time job now? This is how you make your living?Max Miller:Yes.Michael Jamin:Fantastic. It'sMax Miller:More hours than I've ever worked in my life,Michael Jamin:But I mean, you're great at it. You're great on camera. The content is very interesting, very engaging. Sometimes you take it in the field, which is a great write off. It's an excuse to get out of the house and shoot something on the field, which is great. Exactly. Have other opportunities come from this unexpected opportunities maybe?Max Miller:Yes, absolutely. One I'm not actually allowed to talk about, but it'll be something on the standard actual television, so that's exciting. And then the other is I wrote a cookbook, and that has done immensely well. It was on the New York Times bestseller list, which was something I never really expected that I would be on.Michael Jamin:Did they reach out to you? Did a publisher reach out to you or did youMax Miller:Yeah, they reached out to me shortly after I started the channel. Actually, I think it was about six months in. It was somebody who had watched my Garam episode and said, we would love to do this as a book. And it ended up being kind of rough because she was super excited about the project and she knew the channel, and then she got laid off. So I got transferred to another editor who has been absolutely great, but he didn't really know what to do with me. He did cookbooks. And I was like, well, this is a history book with recipes in it. And he's like, okay. So it took a little time to kind of figure out exactly what we were doing, but it ended up working out. ButMichael Jamin:This is interesting because most people will approach a publisher, please, I got a book by my, but when you build it yourself, it's the other way around, and it's just so much make them come to you, and it's because you put the work in first. And how big was your channel when they first reached out to you?Max Miller:Not huge. Maybe in the 200 to 250,000 subscriber, which is actually really big, but not where I am now.Michael Jamin:What was the first video that you blew up on? What was that?Max Miller:Rum? So I started the channel the last week of February, and this was, I think the third week of June. That's fast. It wasn't that long after starting. It was because it was covid and nobody had anything to do, but watch YouTube videos. I had been getting a few thousand views on my videos, which I thought was stellar. This really wasn't supposed to be a thing. And then within a week it was at almost a million views, and I had jumped from 10,000 subscribers to 150,000 in a week.Michael Jamin:Wow. Wow. Now, I guess you can't talk about, obviously you can't this project, this network project, but what about acting opportunities and I mean, you're a face now, you're this guy, people know.Max Miller:Yeah, I mean, when it comes to acting opportunities, everything right now is acting myself. And I'm sure that if I went out and auditioned, maybe I could get something, but I don't have time.Michael Jamin:Time.Max Miller:This is what it is. And really at this point, if I did something acting wise, I'd probably want to go back to musical theater, which was my first love and do some shows. But wow,Michael Jamin:I wouldn't roll that out. I mean, you keep on building your audience and I certainly would not roll that out. I mean, what is fame? Are you getting recognized now or what's it like for you?Max Miller:I am. I actually just got recognized at Costco today. Really? Yeah. It's funny. I get recognized very seldom here in Los Angeles because I think everyone sees people out all the time. But whenever I go anywhere else, I always get, which is pretty awesome. Even in Greece, really? In Greece, I recognized every day in Greece by people who watched this one video when I did this Spartan blood broth video. Everyone in Greece, I swear, has seen that video. So that's how they all knew me. I wonder if it's awesome.Michael Jamin:I wonder if fame for people like you is different than movie actors or TV actors in the sense that you're this friend that they watch on the Or what do you thinkMax Miller:It is more of that? I mean, I don't know what it's like for Beyonce, but I know for me, I do get a lot of people who it is, we already have a relationship and that we're good friends because we hang out for 20 minutes every Tuesday.Michael Jamin:But not only that, they're probably looking you on their phone, which is this, it's not even the TV mean to me that famous is such an interesting thing. I worked with obviously a lot of actors, but they create, when you're an actor, it's the character that they know. And sometimes they have a hard time differentiating between you and the villain that you play. It's like, that's not me. But with you, it's different. I think it must be very different. You're a friend, I think, right?Max Miller:And I mean, in the show, that's me. I'm not playing character at all. It's just this is how I am. And so it does create a bond. I guess you do get to know. It is so much more about the creator. There are other people who have maybe started to kind of do what I do or that were already kind of doing what I do slightly differently. I'm not the first person to cook historical food by any means, but I'm me doing it and they are them doing it. And so it will always be different. People are like, oh, they're coming for you. No, there's so much room for everyone because everyone is an individual. And b, Dylan Hollis approaches historic food in a very different way. I don't know if you know him, but he's on TikTok. He's huge. He's fantastic. He has a great cookbook out, but his personality is his personality, and mine is mine. And even if we covered the exact same topic, it would be done in such a different way.Michael Jamin:Was there ever any imposter syndrome on your end? I didn't go to culinary school. I'm not a this or thatMax Miller:Every day. I mean, the fact that I have a cookbook out is insane. Yeah, no, there is both on the cooking end of things and the history end of things, because I'm not a trained historian either, really. The show is just me reading things that I thought were interesting and me fumbling my way through the kitchen until I come up with something that I think was what the recipe was trying to get at.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I mean, a lot of times these recipes as I look at 'em, they just say what the ingredients are. They don't say the proportions. They certainly don't say the temperature was cooked at if it was cooked in middle Ages. And so you're just going by what you think it should be.Max Miller:Yeah. They're all vague sometimes to the degree of, you can't even tell if this is a bread or a soup, kind of vague. But with context clues, you can't just read the recipe. You have to read other things usually in the cookbooks or other cookbooks from the time. And then leaning on other historians and scholars who have done work for years and years, you're kind of able to make an educated guess on a lot of things. But that's all it's ever going to be.Michael Jamin:But can you tell me how food dishes have changed over the centuries? Are we using way more sugar now or something?Max Miller:Oh yeah. Yeah. And I mean, partly because our pallets have just changed in a way, at least here in the United States, but also because it's so much cheaper. In the Middle Ages, they loved sugar, but it was being grown in Indonesia or India, and so it had to come a long way. And then it had to be refined to become white sugar, which was an incredibly lengthy process and incredibly expensive and really only done in one or two places in the world. So a little bit of sugar was like it was buying a Lamborghini and showing off your wealth. So most people didn't get it. Whereas then you get to the 18th century and all the poor people are putting sugar in their tea. Oh, really? And so the rich people were like, we don't want that in our food anymore. We're going to go with fresh ingredients instead.Michael Jamin:Oh, really? Really? Yeah. How interesting. And then that's another thing, processed food is so relatively new and obviously, was there any kind of version of processed food historically before modern age?Max Miller:I guess it depends on what you mean by processed.Michael Jamin:I don't know. Something that was, I don't know. What does it mean to be processed?Max Miller:If you take corn and make it into cornmeal and mix Alize it, which is a laborious process that needs lie, and you're boiling it and then grinding it in a certain way, the Aztecs did that. So it's been done and far before them thousands of years. So that's a process. Making sugar into white sugar is a lengthy process, but that's been done for hundreds of years. Well, no, thousands of years. So is it a Stouffer's microwave meal? No, but we have had processed food for forever. It's just a different process.Michael Jamin:What do you think when you cook it? I imagine the biggest problem, this is why a cooking show will never work. This is why I'm an executive. No, this is why it'll never work, is because people can't taste it. And yet obviously it does work. And so how do you get over that hurdle when you're done with a dish?Max Miller:I mean, I think honestly, visually, people aren't able to kind of feel like they know what something tastes like just by knowing all the ingredients that are in it and then seeing it visually, whether that is correct or not to say, but that doesn't mean that the enjoyment isn't still there. And then I taste it at the end of the episode, and I try my best to describe it, but my descriptions skills are not the best, especially on the fly, because usually when I'm tasting something on camera, it is the first time that I've ever tasted it. I only make the recipes once. So unless something goes horribly wrong, it's the first time that I've tasted it. And so right then coming up with words of how to describe it, I'm not the best. It's something I'm working on, but it doesn't seem to harm things.Michael Jamin:But I'm a little surprised when you say it's you alone in the kitchen. You have a couple of cameras, you turn 'em on, you hope they're in focus, and you run in front of the camera. I'm surprised you don't have a director, I don't know, giving you, helping you more joy on your face or something.Max Miller:So it's funny you say that. Every Jose, my husband focuses the camera right before I shoot to make sure I'm in focus, because so many times I've filmed an entire thing and I'm not, so he focuses the camera hits record and then says high energy, and then leaves the room. And so that's the direction that I get at the beginning, high energy. And often in my script, I will write in more energy, more energy, just because you do need a lot of energy on camera to come through. YouMichael Jamin:Do. People don't realize thatMax Miller:When you're really just being yourself on camera, it comes across as super flat.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it's a heightened version ofMax Miller:Yourself, have to remind myself.Michael Jamin:Right. And so actually, I had a lot of thoughts about that, but I wonder if this is an opportunity for you to do even, I don't know, like a live show, I don't know, cooking. I don't know. Is there something like that that you're thinking about exploring orMax Miller:So yeah, I actually have thought about doing live shows simply because one of my favorite things to do is meet people who watch the show. It's a very insular kind of life. I work alone. I do everything pretty much all at home alone. So meeting people who watch the show has been really exciting. And on book tour, I got to do that really for the first time. And so I think doing a live thing where I cook and talk about the history would be great. The only thing is I am a really messy and slow cook. I'm not Julia Child who used to do it all live every week. I couldn't do that. SoMichael Jamin:You have two versions. You got the messy version. And oh, by the way, I did this earlier. Here's the real version. I mean, I think people would know that would be kind. You know what I'm saying? They don't understand.Max Miller:Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.Michael Jamin:You don't know. Is it hard for you when you watch your video, I guess when you're editing, you watch everything, but now that you're not editing it, what's it like for you even watching yourselfMax Miller:Really once it's out,I never watch 'em again. And it's not necessarily that I find it hard to watch myself. What I find hard is when I do go back and watch older videos, it pains me to see, I'm proud of how far I've come, but it pains me that I was ever not where I am now. And that comes with the technical aspects, the lighting, the sound, all of that. But really more than anything, it's my script. Writing has just become so much tighter. How I go in depth on the history has really changed. So eventually I want to go back to some of the earlier topics that I talked about and redo them because I'm like, I talked about the history for three minutes. I've got 20 minutes of content to do. So peopleMichael Jamin:Don't realize that sometimes they think they're afraid of putting themselves out there because they're going to suck and you are going to suck. That's why you keep doing going to, yeah. Oh, it came in my head and just lost it. Oh, I know what I was going to say. Do you feel this pressure, I mean, you do one a week, right?Max Miller:Usually once in a while I'll do two, but usually once a week.Michael Jamin:Do you feel this incredible? It never ends. It never ends. Is that a burden? Is that something you struggle with or no?Max Miller:Yeah. Yeah, it is. Because it is. Every weekend people are like, well, you could take a week off, but one YouTube does not. They say they don't mind that, but they do. The algorithm does. And two, for me, I feel like it's going to be like the gym. If I take one day off of the gym, I'm probably going to take two days off, and that'll be a week. And I think if I miss one episode, I'll be like, oh, well, I'll do that again next month. So every Tuesday, I can't think too, too far ahead because it does get kind of daunting. It's like, oh my gosh, when will I run out of ideas? And when I go on vacation or take a trip somewhere, getting those videos ready ahead of time, my friends, and they don't see me for weeks at a time because I'm working from 7:00 AM until 9:00 PM seven days a week for the two weeks before I go on vacation.Michael Jamin:It's that much work. Really. Yeah,Max Miller:It is. I work probably 10 hours a day with breaks of petting the cats and going to get lunch. But it's all day and it's pretty much seven days a week in some respect. Even if I'm not working on an episode per se, I'm coming up with ideas for other things. I'm going through my emails. It takes me months to respond to an email or going on Instagram and cleaning up that and Facebook. There's just so many different aspects to it that there is no time that I'm not somewhat in tasting history mode.Michael Jamin:When you say cleaning up Instagram, what does that mean?Max Miller:Going through comments, going through messages.Michael Jamin:Now I'm going to get to the real stuff. So when you say going through comments, is any of it haters? Are you dealing with any haters?Max Miller:Very rarely. I have a really positive audience, but they come along and there's a fair share of well actually going on. And I think anytime that you share facts of any kind, you're going to get that because especially with history, there's so much up for debate. There's so much vagueness in history that you can't ever please everyone. Do youMichael Jamin:Respond to them? How do you treat it?Max Miller:Once in a while, I will. If they're polite, then I will. If they're not, then I don't, because usually it's like, well, they're having a bad day. You know what? I've watched your channelMichael Jamin:That's asking, that's why I want to know how you do it. Because it's hard.Max Miller:It is really hard. And when I first started, a mean comment would ruin my week. I would dwell on it. I get a thousand good comments and get one bad one, and it just all week. And I'm like, should I change how I do my entire show based on this one person's opinion? Maybe now it ruins my hour, and then I usually forget about it.Michael Jamin:Do you leave it there? Or, oh, go ahead, please.Max Miller:So sometimes I do, but a lot of times I don't, especially it, it's really just mean. Or if there's any kind of racism, homophobia or anything like that, which does happen, I get rid of it. But if it's more of just a critique of any kind, I'll usually leave it.Michael Jamin:Do you block these people or No,Max Miller:I only block people if they are being truly vile. I don't need them in my audience. I also have a secret weapon, and that is my husband who actually does go through all of the comments and gets rid of most of the mean ones before I can ever see them.Michael Jamin:But he doesn't respond. He doesn't engage, or does heMax Miller:Not with the mean one. No. He just gets rid of 'em. He engages with the positive.Michael Jamin:Right. People don't realize it. I mean, it really is. It's one of these weird things where you have a voice, you now have a platform, you have a voice, but in many ways, you can't use it. You can't respond it. It's just that you just can't, can't.Max Miller:It's never going to do any benefit. Really though there have been times where I have responded, and especially if somebody tries to correct me, and I'm not always right. I've made mistakes. That's just the nature of putting stuff out there. But if I know I'm correct and they try to correct me, I'll respond and say, Hey, actually they did have sugar in the middle ages. And very often, even if it's a nasty worded comment, they will follow up being uber apologetic and like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. I don't know why I came across that way because most people, and myself included, when you're on your phone or whatever, whatever crap comes to your brain goes onto the phone and it's gone. And then you don't think about it anymore. But when I get it, it's all I think about.Michael Jamin:But I disagree with you. I'm guessing the fact that you've been doing this so long with your channel, I bet you don't leave any kind of comments that are even remotely negative now.Max Miller:No. No. I do not. What comes, but sometimes when I'm responding to comments, I don't necessarily even think about the response. And it's not that I'm responding in a negative way or mean, it's just I will respond to 10 comments and realize I was on autopilot. I wasn't even really reading necessarily what, and so I got to take a second and be like, they took time to comment. I'm going to take time to read it and respond. Granted, I only respond to maybe 1% of the comments, but those comments,Michael Jamin:Isn'tMax Miller:That interesting? I try to actually respond.Michael Jamin:I'm curious to how you think this whole thing, and it hasn't been that long. It's only been, what, two or three years your channel has been up?Max Miller:It'll be four in February.Michael Jamin:Four. Okay. Wow. Okay. So how do you think it's changed you as a person?Max Miller:I've always had a good work ethic, but now it is a little just, I have a very good work ethic. I don't want to call myself a workaholic. I do take breaks to play with Lego and stuff, but I really hold my, because nobody else is going to hold me accountable. So I just have to really hold myself accountable. This is not the first creative endeavor I've tried. I worked on a book for a while. I worked in animation, making my own cartoons for a while. I was doing all this other stuff, and once it didn't work out or whatever, I'd get frustrated and I'd stop doing it. This is the only one that I've stuck with no matter what. It's just like you got to put out the work. Even if I get to sit down in my computer one day, and this happens every week and I have no ideas, and I'm looking at a blank page, and I'm like, I don't know what next week's episode is going to be. I just sit there until it comes to me. And that is not how I was when I worked on some of my other projects. It was like, if it doesn't come easily, I quit.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Are the animations the yours then, in your show? Do you do all that then?Max Miller:Yeah. I mean by animations. Well, I don't know the words coming up on screen. Well,Michael Jamin:I thought I saw other stuff, but no. Why are you not adding animation then?Max Miller:So there are two things that I didn't animate. So when the show first started, I animated the opening segment and the time for history, little interstitial. But a couple of years ago, I hired someone to do a better job, and so they did those. I don't do the animations because animation takes, it takes forever. And really, my most valuable commodity now is my time. And so if there's any way to make stuff go faster and keep it quality, I'll do it.Michael Jamin:Now, that's an interesting question because there are ways that you could do this with less quality, but you're not tempted to do it.Max Miller:I don't want to say I'm not tempted, but I haven't, and I don't think I will. I'm often tempted, I think that I could find editors to find images for me, I have tried. It's been far less quality. I've hired people to help with scripts, and it just hasn't worked out. And I don't want to say I'm the best. I'm the only one that can do this. I know that's not the case. I'm sure that other people could do it. It's I'm not great at, I'm not great at giving up control because it's my thing and I know exactly how I want it to be. And could I get out more episodes if I gave up that control? Yeah, probably. But it's doing so well, I guess I don't need it to, I'm fine having one channel and having it do as it's doing. People are like, well, you should be doing this project and this, and you would have time to do this. And I'm like, yeah, I would. But I like what I'm doing. I'm really enjoying my life right now. SoMichael Jamin:Was it hard for you to quit your job and to do this full time?Max Miller:So I didn't have much of a choice, so I can't say that it was hard because I started the channel in the last week of February, 2020, and I was selling movies to movie theaters.Michael Jamin:Okay.Max Miller:So by the second week of March, I no longer had a job. I was technically still employed by Disney, and they continued to pay for my insurance and everything. By the time they said, Hey, do you want to come back? It was April of 2021, and the channel had taken off. And so I was like, Nope, I'm going to do this. It's not a sure thing, but my husband was still working for Disney, and so it's not like we would starve if I failed. So I mean, it was a hard decision in as much as I loved my job at Disney and I really missed the people that I worked with. I still miss people. I miss having coworkers. But when it came to, I knew that this was going to work. You did? I just did. Well, itMichael Jamin:Kind of already was though. I mean, that's the thing.Max Miller:Yeah, no, it kind of already was. And I think I knew that I had a list of hundreds of ideas ready to go, and I knew that I was getting better. And so I thought, well, if I've gotten this much better in a year, I'm going to get a lot better in another year, in two years. So,Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my content, and I know you do because listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people like you can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michaeljamin.com/. And now back to what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about?What about collaborations with people? Is that something you do? I didn't notice any.Max Miller:I've done a, I have a couple actually coming up that I'm doing. I don't do that many, partly because like,Michael Jamin:Hey, look, who's in my kitchen this week?Max Miller:Yeah, I think I watched one of your episodes in the last couple of weeks was with someone, young guy on TikTok who said, collaborations are the way to grow. That's not the case with my kind of channel. To a degree, it can, but that's just not, with YouTube. It's not as important anymore. It used to be, but not as much anymore. But also it's a lot more work.Michael Jamin:Oh, is it? Why?Max Miller:Well, from a technical aspect, I have trouble setting up one microphone alone, two microphones. I have trouble. I film in my kitchen. I know where everything is going to be. So if ever I have to film in any other location, it's a nightmare. And you have to, when I'm writing a script, I'm writing it for me. So when I bring in a second voice and I don't know what they're going to say and everything, it's so much harder. Nothing in my show is off the cuff. I have scripted it down almost to the word. Are you on a teleprompter then? No. So when I'm speaking, it is somewhat off the cuff. It's not word for word what's on the script, but I write out the script word for word. I'll read a paragraph, I'll remember it, and then I'll regurgitate it to the camera. But changing the words ever so slightly, so it comes across as if it's the first time I'm saying it. But no, I'm not on a teleprompter. I don't think I could be. I don't know that it would come across as realMichael Jamin:For me. Are you doing multiple takes then, or what, or no? MultipleMax Miller:Takes many. Many takes many. Yeah. Especially because I do trip over my words and everything. There are often times a lot of foreign words and complicated names and dates and everything. So I'm always kind of having to look down at the script to remember what I'm saying. And that is what my new editor is editing out. I'll give her an hour and 20 minutes that needs to be cut down into 18 minutes because of all of the mistakes that I've made. And thenMichael Jamin:You'll give her notes on that cut and use a different take, or No.Max Miller:So usually whatever the last take I took is the take that I want. Once I've got it right, I'll move on. And she has my down really, really well. So there are very few comments that I have to give her, and she's super fast, so she turns it around literally three times faster than I ever could. It's pretty astonishing. So it's so far, it's been a great help.Michael Jamin:It's so interesting because like I said, it really looks like, I'm surprised that you said you're the only one. It looks like a TV show. It looks like there's a bunch of people helping you out. And so are you monetizing mostly through ads on YouTube or it's selling your cookbook? Do you do that?Max Miller:Yeah, I mean, ads is definitely the number one spot for me. And then I have cookbook, I do sponsorships. I have a Patreon. Oh, IMichael Jamin:Saw that. That's right. The Patreon, which is so, it's so interesting. Now. That's the problem with Patreon. You have to think of additional bonus content that you charge people for that you're not putting in your show, and yet you're putting so much in your show. What's bonus?Max Miller:So there isn't a lot of bonus content on my patron because everything does go, luckily, my patrons, they know how much is going into each episode, so they know that I don't really have time. What's the advantage there? I have other things. The main thing is we do a monthly happy hour, we make a cocktail and we do a Zoom happy hour,Michael Jamin:InterestingMax Miller:People that actually take advantage of it, which is, and I send out little gifts every few months, magnets and stuff that are associated with the show, stickers, things like that. But one thing I do do

On this week's episode, I have influencer/creator expert Taylor Lorenz. Tune in as we talk about her book, “Extremely Online: The Untold Story Of Fame, Influence, And Power On The Internet” as well as her experiences working as a journalist for “The Washington Post” and “The New York Times”. We also dive into some tidbits she has about social media.Show NotesTaylor Lorenz on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/taylorlorenz/?hl=enTaylor Lorenz on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@taylorlorenz?lang=enTaylor Lorenz on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCp38w5n099xkvoqciOaeFagMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptTaylor Lorenz:These old school entertainment people come on and they don't really understand the app and they clearly are not doing it themselves. They have some content assistant and then they're like, Hey kids, I guess I have to be here now. And it's like, what are you doing here? I will say the musicians do a better job. Megan Trainor has Chris Olsson, but TikTok buddy that, and music is such a part of TikTok, I feel like they get a warmer reception.Michael Jamin:You're listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity, I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts.Hey everyone, what the hell? It's Michael Jamin talking about today. I'm going to tell you what I'm talking about. So for those of you who have been listening for a long time, I'm always telling you, just put your work out there. Get on social media, start making a name for yourself, because whether you want to be an actor or a writer or director, you got to bring more to the table than just your desire to get a big paycheck and become rich and famous. If you can bring a market, if you can bring your audience you're going to bring, that brings a lot to the table. And so my next guest is an expert on this, and she's the author of Extremely Online, the Untold Story of Fame, influence and Power on the Internet. I'm holding up her book. If you're watching this podcast, if you're driving in the car, you can imagine that there's a book and has a cover. So please welcome, pull over your car and give a round of applause to Taylor Lorenz. Thank you Taylor for coming and joining me for talking about this. It's an honor meeting you finally.Taylor Lorenz:Yeah, likewise. Excited to be here.Michael Jamin:So you wrote this great book, which I read, and there's so much, I guess there's so much. You actually document the history starting from the beginning of mommy bloggers and all these people who kind of were at the forefront and then built a name for themselves on social media. And so I'm just hoping to talk to you about how we can take some of this information and apply it to the people who listen to my podcast and follow me on social media so that they can help do the same. So I guess starting from the beginning, what was interesting that you pointed out is that women were kind of at the forefront at this whole thing. You want to talk about that a little bit?Taylor Lorenz:Yeah, definitely. I mean, I talk about this in the book, but in the turn of the millennium, the early aughts, this blogging was taking off and there were tons of blogs, and I talk about some of the big political and tech blogs at the time, but it wasn't really until the mommy bloggers entered onto the internet in the early aughts who were these moms, these stay at home moms that really had nothing else to do. A lot of them were shut out of the labor market, and they turned to blogging and ended up really building their own kind of feminist media empires by building audiences. And they were the first to really cultivate strong personal brands online and then leverage those personal brands to monetize.Michael Jamin:And you're right about, I remember this may have been 10 years ago or maybe longer, one of my friends, our screenwriter, she developed a TV show on these mommy bloggers. And I'm like, wait a minute. And there was a couple of people who did that. Max Nik, who was a guest on my podcast a while, a couple weeks ago, same thing. He wrote a show based on shit my dad says, but it's on a Twitter feed and there's all these people. It's so interesting. I was a little late to the game in terms of Hollywood exploiting all these markets, these people who are making names for themselves. Lemme back up for a second though. Why did you decide to even write this book?Taylor Lorenz:Yeah, so I started covering this. I started as a blogger myself a little bit later.Michael Jamin:What were you blogging?Taylor Lorenz:I was blogging about my life, a lot, about my life and a lot of about online culture stuff. I thought that the mainstream media was really bad at covering the internet, and so I thought, I'm going to write about the internet. This was when I was young millennial, right out of college.Michael Jamin:You were writing about your personal life?Taylor Lorenz:Yes.Michael Jamin:Okay. So that's a whole different thing. You're opening yourself up to everything. And was there any, I know I'm jumping around here, I guess I have so many questions, but I don't know, was there backlash from that? Were there repercussions? Because we're talking about people do this. What's the backlash?Taylor Lorenz:Well, this was like 2009, so it was such a different internet, and I'm so grateful, honestly, that I was blogging in that era and not this era because I think I didn't get a lot of backlash. I had a great community. I met some of my best friends, were other bloggers from that era. I became very popular on Tumblr for my single serving like meme, like blogs. So yeah, I think when you're young, you're just kind of trying a lot of different things out. I didn't know what I wanted to do out of college. I'd never studied journalism. I didn't know I was working at a call center and just became popular on the internet and then was like, I guess I'm pretty good at thisMichael Jamin:Stuff. Really? I didn't know that about it. You have a pretty big following on TikTok and Instagram as well, which is so weird because you're writing about something that you are also participating in. I mean, it's almost meta how you are, what you're talking about. No,Taylor Lorenz:Yeah. I mean, I started, had I been able to monetize my blog nowadays, content creators on TikTok, they can monetize in 2009, 2010, couldn't, the best that you could hope for was one of those book deals that Urban Outfitters. Right?Michael Jamin:ButTaylor Lorenz:You couldn't really leverage it into much. I ended up just leveraging it into a career in media, which has been fun. ButMichael Jamin:See, this is what's interesting to me because right now you see so many people on social media, how do I monetize this? Meaning ads or even sponsorships, but there's other ways to monetize outside of brand deals or views on YouTube getting used. So yeah, there's a whole, I don't know. Do you think that's a large percentage of people on the internet? It seems like to me most are doing it to monetize for the brand deals. What's your take on it?Taylor Lorenz:Yeah, I think now that you can monetize in that way, a lot of people, that's their end goal. I'm kind of glad. I mean, it's a double-edged sword. Who knows what I could have done if I was able to monetize, but I'm really glad actually that you couldn't, because I think myself and a lot of other bloggers, we ended up going in a lot of different ways and entering into a lot of media type of jobs that, yeah, I mean would've never gotten otherwise. And I've learned how to be a journalist and I've gotten all these opportunities and my whole career from just experimenting and having fun online. So yeah, I think I always tell people, it's great if you can monetize, get the bag. If somebody comes to you offering you thousands of dollars, why not? But I think it's really good to take that virality and leverage it into, I like what Kayla Scanlan does, or Kyla, she's the economics YouTuber, and she gives all these talks about econ now, and she has a newsletter, and she's able to just do a lot more. It's not just doing a bunch of brand deals online. It's like using it to launch a career and whatever you want to have a career in.Michael Jamin:Yeah, see, I see. That's the funny, I think it's so smart what you're saying. I see some people, I'm like wondering, what's your end game out of this? Is it just to, but what you're saying is the end game, it's interesting. The end game is to do something else. And I wonder if that's what's going on with Hollywood people when I'm encouraging people to, I don't know, put theirselves out there with their art, their writing their music or whatever in my mind, to build an audience following to basically, so you can do the next thing. But I'm wondering how often that if you see that happening for people,Taylor Lorenz:I think the smart ones do recognize it. I feel like the internet, you're just hopping from lily pad to lily pad a lot of the time, which I know that's how a lot of creative people feel. It's just like, I think internet fame in itself can be a goal. I mean, look, someone like Mr. Beast, you've done it. You crack the code. Most people are not going to reach that level. And so it makes a lot of sense. If you're really into food, you're making food content, use that to open your own restaurant or food line or whatever, but use it to go into something that you're interested in because then you still, you always have that online audience. I still have my online audience. I have people that have followed me for a decade and maybe they know me from my blog or I had a Snapchat show in 2016 or things that I've done over the years, but it's always in service of my broader career.Michael Jamin:And so Well, maybe tell me what that is. Do you have a broader goal ahead of all this? Other than getting a book, which is pretty impressive.Taylor Lorenz:I know. I never thought I would write a book. And then just, there was a lot of revisionist history once the pandemic hit in 2021 and all these venture capitalists were pouring money into the content creator world, and TikTok was taking off. People were just kind of like, they were rewriting history. And I was like, I'm going to write the definitive history. I've been around for this. And I always thought it would be interesting to write a book. I didn't know anything about the publishing industry, except I have a couple friends that did those Urban Outfitters typeMichael Jamin:Books. That's so funny.Taylor Lorenz:See,Michael Jamin:Oh, go ahead. I don't cut you off. So your broader goals. Oh, yeah.Taylor Lorenz:I love media. I love media. I want to keep working in media. I love creative sort of endeavors. I like writing. I make videos as I am very obsessed with news media, so I wantMichael Jamin:To, right. So maybe more of that. There's a couple of things in that book, in your book that kind of took me a little bit by surprise. One is there are, well, first of all, I think there are people who make content. This is just my opinion, their content's a little disposable. And so you spoke about people who, I don't know, it's like pranksters who they got to keep upping the prank until it comes to a point where this one woman you're talking about, she was sick to her stomach with the pressure of having to come up with something all the time. And to me, it felt like that's because you're making, I guess I have a rule. I have a rule. I was like, I don't want to spend more than 10 minutes a day on this. But there are people who spend on posting, but there are people who put way a lot of time and pressure on this, and it winds up destroying themselves, don't you think?Taylor Lorenz:Oh, a hundred percent. I mean, there's a whole bunch of that in my book of just the burnout. And I think, like you said, it comes from just making content for content's sake and feeling like it's an extra burden and giving it, it's also when it's your whole livelihood, the stakes become higher. That's why I say you should diversify a little bit.Michael Jamin:Yeah. There was another, the thing that really surprised me that I learned from your book, because I'm a little older, so I don't really know all this stuff, but there's a whole culture of content creators who their job is just to talk shit about other content creators.Taylor Lorenz:And I'm like,Michael Jamin:Oh my God. And I've witnessed some of this stuff, but I didn't realize it's really a thing, like a gossip. They're just gossipers, right?Taylor Lorenz:Yeah. They basically have replaced tabloid news for the internet, and yeah, it's a huge drama channel industrial complex online that you're lucky if you've not encountered.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And do they go anywhere with, what do you think is the end game for them?Taylor Lorenz:Well, I mean, the woman that runs DUIs, which is more of a blind item, celebrity news page, she has a podcast. She also, she wrote a novel kind of based around the content. Others like Diet Prada have really successful newsletters. A lot of the other commentators like Keemstar and stuff, their goal is just to basically run these media empires of gossip, kind of like a TMZ for the internet.Michael Jamin:And then how are they further monetizing though?Taylor Lorenz:They monetize through partnerships and brand deals and a lot through YouTube ads. They get a lot of views. A lot of them get a lot of views on YouTube.Michael Jamin:See, I just turned, maybe I'm crazy, but I turned down a brand deal today because I thought, I don't know, it doesn't align with anything that I stand for. And I was like, am I crazy for turning this down? Or I don't know. But have you get approached by things that, are you turning stuff down?Taylor Lorenz:Well, yeah, I have to turn down so much stuff. I'll never forget a tech company, which I will not name, offered me $60,000 to do three video, three audio chat rooms for them.Michael Jamin:What is an audio chat room?Taylor Lorenz:Like? A live chat type thing? It was going to be like three hours of work. And obviously I couldn't do it because I can't take on sponsored content. I'm a journalist. You can't do that, especially not with a tech company. But I have to say that one really made me question my career choices. Normally people are like, can you promote X, Y, Z? And I explained that I don't do.Michael Jamin:So there's nothing that you can promote a journalist. There's nothing.Taylor Lorenz:I mean, I could theoretically probably promote companies that I don't cover, but I don't really want to, I don't need to make $500 promoting a mop.Michael Jamin:Right, right. Yeah, it's so interesting. You have to protect what you, it's so odd because I don't see a lot of people making brand when I'm scrolling through my pages for you a page on TikTok, I don't see a lot of people making brand deals, but I guess they are, right? Am I not seeing it?Taylor Lorenz:Yeah, the branded content doesn't always live on TikTok. A lot of times they'll create whitelisted content that the brand then promotes in a TikTok ad.Michael Jamin:Wait, when you say white, okay, explain this to me. So whitelisted means the creator. Go ahead.Taylor Lorenz:The creator creates branded content, but it doesn't necessarily live on their feed. They create it for the brand, and then the brand will use that video they made to the creator, like, wow, I love my air stick selfie thing. They'll run ads. So it's using that creator's likeness in the ad. It's the video that they made, but you're not going to see it on their page. You're going to see it in the,Michael Jamin:But do they not put it on their page or you're not going to see it? No one's going to watch it.Taylor Lorenz:Sometimes they do put it on their page, sometimes they don't. I mean, all of these are negotiated in the terms of the ad deals, which are structured increasingly in complicated ways. But I mean, there's a lot of spun con on TikTok. Also, sometimes there's product placement on TikTok. You'll see people doing videos with certain products. Sometimes the products have paid to be in their,Michael Jamin:And they have to mention this, right? They have to, I wasn't aware of this, but theoretically, yes, theoretically. But you're saying they don't always mention it. They don't always say, this isTaylor Lorenz:The sponsor. So the FTC says Yes, and I write about that decision in 2017 when they had to do that. The thing is that a lot of times they can get away with not saying it because it's not directly sponsored. For instance, you could have a long-term, year long partnership with the brand. They could be giving you tons of free product, but they didn't directly pay you for that post. So you feel like, oh, I don't have to disclose it,Michael Jamin:But they paid you for something. I mean, that doesn't make sense. They paid you. It's totally great. Okay. Yeah. ButTaylor Lorenz:People get around it by kind of fudging things.Michael Jamin:Who would get in trouble then if they got caught? The brand, not the TikTok or whatever.Taylor Lorenz:Not really. I mean, they went after Kim Kardashian. If you're that level, they'll go after you. But normally they're going after the brands. The brands are usually doing this. And also it's ultimately the brand or the agency that's running the marketing campaign that's up. It's up to them to enforce it and be like, Hey, put this in your caption.Michael Jamin:You said something else that surprised me in your book is that at one point, maybe it's still this way that the agencies are making the money and many of the creators are not getting that money. Explain to me what happens. I read it twice. It's like, wait, I'm missing something. SoTaylor Lorenz:There's been this explosion in sort of middlemen agencies, management companies that have come in. And what they do is they find these up and coming creators, they sign them into contracts like, Hey, I'll handle all your spun con, or I'll come in and do this deal. And then they take a huge portion, the brand pays maybe a hundred thousand dollars for a campaign. The agency will come in and take 50% of that or something, and then the rest goes to the creators. They allocate it, soMichael Jamin:They're getting something. You couldTaylor Lorenz:Argue that they are providing a service, and that's true, but the less ethical agencies are less upfront about the amount that they're taking.Michael Jamin:Interesting. Oh, they don't tell you how much it is? Probably,Taylor Lorenz:Yeah. They won't tell you what the brand originally paid. They'll just say, oh, it's $10,000 for this campaign. Nevermind that we got a hundred thousand dollars from the actualMichael Jamin:Brand. Oh, wow. Yeah. There's so much to be careful. There really is. And so I asked you a little bit earlier if you knew of many. Okay, so I'll let give you an example from my experience. So I did a show, I don't know, maybe 10 years ago, maybe not maybe 10. And the studio, we had a cast a role, and the studio wanted to get an influencer to play the part because this influencer had a bigger audience than the network had. And he turned it down several times because the money, he was going to paid a lot of money, but the money wasn't worth it to him. He was making more on a daily, which I was shocked about. And so do you know more? Can you speak more to that?Taylor Lorenz:That happens all the time. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Really?Taylor Lorenz:Yeah.Michael Jamin:I thought this guy was crazy, but okay, go on.Taylor Lorenz:Well, I mean, for a lot of content creators, their goal, it depends on the content creators. Some content creators, their goal is to get into Hollywood, and that would be an amazing opportunity for them. But especially the ones at the upper echelon, they're already the a-list of the internet. They're making millions of dollars. They really don't need to engage. And maybe it's a fun thing if they want to do it, and they have time and it's like a novelty type thing, or it adds some sort of legitimacy to them. But a lot of times, if they're spending, for instance, hours on a set, that's money out of their pocket that they could be making a lot. So it kind of doesn't make sense. And people have struggled. Not every content creator succeeds as well. So I think some of them do have that feeling of like, look, I'm really good at this. I know I'm really good at this. I'm making money. Do I want to gamble? Take time away from that. Try my hand at this thing that maybe I have and succeeded at before. It's not always there.Michael Jamin:Maybe I shouldn't even ask this on as we're being recorded. Do you know this guy, nurse Blake? Have you heard of him?Taylor Lorenz:I don't think so. Wait,Michael Jamin:Okay. Because I can't tell if he's a comedian or a nurse, but whatever he is, he's selling out arenas.Taylor Lorenz:Oh, I know this guy. I've seen him before. Yes. He's a comedian, right?Michael Jamin:Well, he doesn't act, but I also see him also posting in the hospital. It seems like he could be selling out arenas, but also he likes doing the rounds or something. I don't know. Yeah.Taylor Lorenz:So it's so funny. I don't know when you joined TikTok, but the earliest content creators on TikTok back in 2018, when it flipped from musically to TikTok, the earliest groups of content creators that emerged were police officers, nurses and service workers. And they were all gaining huge audiences. And I think it's because those jobs have an enormous amount of downtime, and they kind of almost have interesting stages themselves. They're always in the hospital or at Walmart working or whatever. And so there's a lot of people like that on social media that have kind of pivoted their career in that way to,Michael Jamin:Okay. I've been on a TikTok for maybe two and a half years, and at first I was very self-conscious. I was like, isn't this the app where teenage girls shuffle dance? Am I going to be the creepy guy on this app? And you're saying, it's so hard to tell. I mean, the first time, my first week and a half of posts were like this, this is cringey.Taylor Lorenz:They always say, you know what? My favorite quote is that I think all the time Xavier from Party Shirt said this, that everything is cringe until it gets views. And I think that'sMichael Jamin:True. Until it getsTaylor Lorenz:It's popular. It's not cringe anymore,Michael Jamin:I guess. So when you first started posting, did you look to anyone for, I don't know, to emulate?Taylor Lorenz:Yeah. I mean, there's this woman, Katie nais, who's still hilarious internet person, and she's a blogger too. She ended up working at Buzzfeed for a decade. I always just wanted to be like her. She was so creative and funny. She had this website called, I think it was called Party something. She would aggregate really funny party photos, and she just was really good at finding funny things on the internet.Michael Jamin:And do you know, have you reached out to her?Taylor Lorenz:Yeah, now I'm friends with her because I've been obsessed with her for my whole career. So sheMichael Jamin:Very really, so now you have a friendship with her. That's nice. Do you get recognized a lot when you're out and about?Taylor Lorenz:Not in la. No one gives a shit about me in la.Michael Jamin:But when you're out somewhere else, if I'm notTaylor Lorenz:VidCon or something, yeah, usually. I mean, I got recognized in DC on my book tour when I was eating. That was cool. But yeah, sometimes, I mean, when I was doing my Snapchat show, I got recognized a lot more, I think, because a lot of kids were seeing me on the Snapchat Discover Channel thing.Michael Jamin:I was on your link tree, you're everywhere, but are you active on every, I'm like, damn. She's on every platform.Taylor Lorenz:I'm an equal opportunity poster. Well, I mean, I cover this world, so I kind of feel obligated to be on everything. I definitely think Instagram and TikTok are my main ones. And then I have threads also now,Michael Jamin:Which I, are you making different content you posting? Are you reposting or posting brand new stuff? Everywhere.Taylor Lorenz:I repost. If I make a short video for TikTok, I repost it on reels and YouTube shorts. YouTube's always the one that I like. I'm so lazy about, honestly,Michael Jamin:It's hard to grow on YouTube. It's soTaylor Lorenz:Hard to grow, and I don't know, it's just like there's something demoralizing about YouTube.Michael Jamin:Interesting.Taylor Lorenz:But yeah, I think it's because it's like, you know how it is, it's like you post something, you get a hundred thousand views on TikTok, it's doing really well on Instagram. And then you go on YouTube and it's like me, 2000 views, and you're like, oh, I'm aMichael Jamin:Failure. What's the point of that? And you were blocked. Are you still blocked from Twitter or whatever? Twitter is?Taylor Lorenz:Yeah. Elon banned me for a while. I did get back on. I don't really, Twitter is dead to me, honestly.Michael Jamin:What did you do to get banned?Taylor Lorenz:I was, well, he banned me under this rule that he made that said you couldn't promote your links to other social media profiles. And I was promoting my Instagram account, so that's what he technically banned me under. But what he really banned me for is that I reached out to him for comment. I wrote a story about how he completely lied about a bunch of stuff, and I reached out to him for comment. And the minute I reached out to him for comment, I got banned. And then he tried to say, oh, it was actually because she was promoting her Instagram. No,Michael Jamin:That was Oh, interesting. So do you think he was guy, do you, you made it he enemy. He responds. He knows who you are and hates you.Taylor Lorenz:Yeah. Oh, he definitely, yes. I mean, I've interacted with him somewhat frequent basis, but that week I was not the only journalist that was banned for reporting on him. So the same week, drew Harwell, my colleague was banned, and then a bunch of people from the New York Times, we all got banned within a week, soMichael Jamin:Wow. BackTaylor Lorenz:On.Michael Jamin:And then they let you back on. Interesting. And then you're, screw this.Taylor Lorenz:But yeah, Twitter is also just very toxic and political, and I think culture is happening more on TikTok.Michael Jamin:Don't you think they're all toxic?Taylor Lorenz:Oh, totally. But I think Twitter's uniquely toxic. TikTok is toxic in a different way.Michael Jamin:Okay. I want to know what you think the differences are in each platform, because I have opinions, but Okay. Yeah. What are your differences? I mean,Taylor Lorenz:Twitter is just very political, and it's political in a way that there's a lot of, especially as a member of the media, it's like there's a lot of journalists on there. I think it's a giant group chat for a lot of media people. It's stressful. Editors, bosses are on there. I don't really use it. I use it to keep up with, I'm super immunocompromised, and so I keep up with Covid News on there. It's really the only thing I use it for. It's really hard to get news and information because Elon has sort of made so many changes to make it hard to get news on there. So I don't mess with Twitter. TikTok I love. But yeah, I mean, TikTok is just mob mentality. So I mean, I'll never forget. I defended, do you remember West Elm Caleb?Michael Jamin:No. And it's so funny when you say these names. I'm like, these ridiculous names. I'm like, no, I don't know that comic book character.Taylor Lorenz:Okay, well, west Elm Caleb a year and a half ago was getting canceled on TikTok. He was a guy that ghosted a bunch of people. He ghosted a bunch of women, and a bunch of women went on TikTok, like, this guy's a ghoster. And it got so crazy that he got fully doxxed and fired from his job. And anyway, I defended him and I was like, Hey guys, can we calm down a little bit? We haven't even heard this guy's side of the story. I believe he shouldn't be an asshole to women, but I've been doxxed. It sucks. Don't do that. And TikTok, they came for me hard on that one. They were like, no,Michael Jamin:No,Taylor Lorenz:Somebody from West Tom, Caleb.Michael Jamin:And then, yeah. How worried are you about, I worry about that. How worried about you getting haters and stuff?Taylor Lorenz:I've gotten haters. I write about YouTubers for a living. So if I was worried about haters, it doesn't matter. My friend is a pop music writer, and he was saying, he told me a couple years ago, because if anytime you are covering something with a fandom, you're going to deal with haters. And they're vicious, but a lot of them are 11 years old, or they're just online and they're mad andMichael Jamin:Okay. Do you respond to your posts comments on your post? You do.Taylor Lorenz:I do. I try to mean, don't try not to respond to haters. Sometimes I'm weak and I do respond to the haters, but noMichael Jamin:Good comes of it. Right? When you do, no,Taylor Lorenz:No good comes of it. But sometimes you just, I don't know. You just got to, butMichael Jamin:Even if you respond with kindness, which I did today to somebody, he just doubled down on his stupidity. They don't care. Why am I trying to,Taylor Lorenz:They don't care at all. They're like, fuck you.Michael Jamin:Yeah,Taylor Lorenz:Yeah. No, it doesn't help. I mean, sometimes if I'm bored, I've replied something, but I mostly just ignore those people, or I limit my comments and I try to keep it to that only my community's engaging and not a bunch of randos. Or if they have a good faith question, I get a lot of story ideas from people commenting. Or sometimes smart people will comment, you click on their profile, you're like, oh, cool. Person's interesting. Right.Michael Jamin:Okay. Okay. So you sound emotionally mature about this whole thing? Maybe more than I am because I get upset sometimes.Taylor Lorenz:No, trust me, I've had my moments. It's hard. But I think I've just been through it so long. I've been through the cycle so many times that I'm immune.Michael Jamin:And do you talk to your colleagues who, I guess, are they as active as you are on, let say on TikTok? No. Other reporters?Taylor Lorenz:Journalists are not. It's weird with journalists on TikTok. They're not really, journalists are so addicted to Twitter. Twitter is where everyone in the media is. And there's some journalists on TikTok, but not that many. So the ones that are, I think we all try to support each other,Michael Jamin:Or it's just not competitive. Yeah, it's supportive. You think?Taylor Lorenz:I try to be supportive. I don't, like somebody said this really early on of Don't compete collab or something. It was like early thing. And I really like that. I felt that with blogging too. I had made friends with a lot of bloggers. We were all in the same group. And it's just like the internet is really vast and everyone is unique. AndMichael Jamin:There's not tooTaylor Lorenz:Many internet culture reporters either. So,Michael Jamin:Well, that's a question I can't tell how big TikTok is. Sometimes I'll see, oh my God, this creator knows that creator, and they talk whether they stick to each other. I'm like, wow, this is a small place. But then I'm wondering, well, maybe I'm only seeing this wedge of the pie, and it's actually much larger. I can't get a sense of how big this thing is.Taylor Lorenz:It is really big. I mean, it's like billions of users, so it's really big. But I do think that inMichael Jamin:Terms of the creators though, theTaylor Lorenz:Creator community is smaller than you think. And I think the people that are really active, they form a network. And you're always going to get people that are a couple degrees away from people that you follow usually.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Where do you think, I'm certainly not the first person to say this, but during the early days of Instagram, it was always about people. This is the glamorous life. It was all made up. It was like they got sponsored posts to be on a yacht or whatever. They're pretending to be rich and famous or whatever. And because we're all idiots, we're like, wow, they're rich and famous, and they're living that life. And then that somehow evolved to now influences turn to creators, and creators are more authentic. This is my life. Take it or leave it. What do you think there's next? What comes next after that? Do you have any idea? Yeah,Taylor Lorenz:I mean, I think we always flip back and forth between aspirational versus authenticity. And people want a little bit of both. People still want the aspirational content. It's just not everything. And I do think that the authenticity is part of the appeal, and I don't think it's going away anytime soon. But yeah, I don't know. I mean, different content formats perform well depending on what the platform is promoting. So right now, they really want long form video. So I think we're going to see people that succeed in long form grow faster.Michael Jamin:But do you think when you're posting, maybe you don't even want to answer this on the air. I wouldn't blame you. Are you thinking about, oh, this post will do Well, I should talk about this. I know it'll do well. Or is it like, this is what I'm talking about, take it or leave it?Taylor Lorenz:Yeah. It depends on the day. Some days so many times where I'm like, oh, I know this would do well, but I just don't feel like posting today.Michael Jamin:Oh, really? EspeciallyTaylor Lorenz:Lately, oh my God. There's been so many things where I'm like, oh, that's going to go viral. And then I see somebody else posted and I'm like, good. They got the traffic. You have to be early on something. And then sometimes just most stuff I just post because I think it's interesting, and it's just my taste and news and information and just something I found interesting. But howMichael Jamin:Long will you spend on a post? Do you do it again and again until you get it right? No. One take and you're done?Taylor Lorenz:Usually, maybe I'll do two or three if I might rerecord something, but I don't take it that seriously. It's just one of many things I'm doing during the day, so not, and especially since I've been on book tour, I've just been too busy to make. I go through periods and it depends on how busy I am, how many videos I'm making.Michael Jamin:And how much of your personal life, because I know you're talking about technology and you're interviewing people and you're covering events like a journalist, but how much of yourself do you share?Taylor Lorenz:I share my opinions. I mean, I'm very opinionated, and I think I always tell people that you can be very authentic. And I think a lot of people would find me to be very authentic person online. I'm not a shy person or something, but I don't talk about my personal information. Also, it's not that interesting, I think. Oh, butMichael Jamin:People would love to know. People would love to know. I know Date youTaylor Lorenz:Nosy. They're nosy. But I think about all the cool stuff that I did in my twenties, and I'm like, I wish I had TikTok, I think back then, and I was talking about my life more. I was doing more and going out more. And now I'm like, I have a little bit more of a chill life. So sometimes I talk about walking around the Silver Lake reservoir or something, but I'm not like, if I go to a really interesting event, maybe I'll share it. I mean, I just went to Dubai and I actually haven't posted yet, but I'm making a video about that.Michael Jamin:I can't believe you went. That flight is just too long. I would think it wasTaylor Lorenz:So long. It was

On October 7th, I hosted a webinar called "How Professional Screenwriters Create Great Characters", where I talked about how to come up with interesting and unique characters, as well as how tapping into your everyday life interactions with people can help with this. This episode addresses questions you asked in our Q&A session that we didn't have time to answer. There's lots of great info here, make sure you watch.Show NotesFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:I feel like we're overthinking this a little bit. I feel like maybe we're giving labels that don't need to be labeled. We have a hero. We're going to put this hero on a journey. And who are the people? Or if it's a like a buddy comedy or whatever we're talking about, or if it's a husband and wife or whatever, what's the story? What's the journey we're putting them on and who are the characters we're going to get in their way? You're listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity, I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts.Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin, and today we're going to answer the question, what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Well, today I'm talking about questions from my previous webinar. As many of you know, I do a webinar every three weeks or so where I talk about screenwriting and it's about an hour long and you're all invited and it's free. And I don't always have time to answer all these questions, but Phil is here with us visiting again. Hello, Phil. Hello and happy to be here. He's going to hit me with some of these questions we're going to answer.Phil Hudson:Lemme hit you baby one more time. Let's do it. All right. So again, kind of group questions, context for everyone. This was from a webinar talking about how professional screenwriters create great characters. You've got another really good webinar that a lot of people really like, which is how to write a great story. And so contextually, these are really more character based. There's some miscellaneous stuff, there's some break in questions. We've kind of grouped them together. So as I go through these, we'll just try to keep 'em on theme and let's get into it. Let's talk craft. Think Craft is always a good place to start. Anna Renee Chavez wants to know what big differences are there between writing for animation versus live action?Michael Jamin:Great question. Oh, and I just want to clarify everybody by webinars, you are free. Go to michaeljamin.com/webinar to sign up. I changed the topics, but whatever. So this woman wants to know what's the difference between writing for animation and live action? Not that much in terms of, and I teach 'em both in my course. The differences really are not that different. The only thing you want to think about is well ask yourself why is this show animated? What's the advantages to making this show animated? So in BoJack Horseman, it's a very real and grounded show, but you have horses talking and fish talking, or Whitney, you couldn't do that in live action. So you're taking advantage of the medium. If you have it animated, take advantage of it. When my partner and I did Glen Martin DDS, which is the show there a stop motion animation, we would ask ourselves, what's Clay tastic about this? We'd call it, because it wasn't claymation, but we pretended it was claymation. So what's Clay tastic about this scene? Is someone's head going to come off? So for example, we did an episode where the character, the boy got his head stuck in an elephant's ass. You can't do that in live action. So you can do that in animation, but the story itself, it's very similar. The stories are very similar. It's just that you just take advantage of the medium.Phil Hudson:Yeah, awesome. And I think another good example of this, where a choice was made to do live action RET link's buddy system, you had mentioned to me that one point that it's basically just a cartoon. It's like a live action cartoon with silly It is, but they can't be as silly as they could if it was animated and they could do whatever they wanted. So it still kind of grounds it in this reality, but it's still a bit silly.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it could have been a cartoon, but we would've gone even we did one episode where we turned Lincoln into a robot because the character was like, my life would be easier if I was a robot. So that probably would've been even better if it was animated. But in real life we just started putting 'em in crappy robot costumes.Phil Hudson:Yeah,Michael Jamin:But it was funny. We turned him into a robot, so it was kind of broad.Phil Hudson:Love it. Julia Wells considering extraordinary and ordinary pairing. What would you say about friends, how I Met Your Mother, or shows that are more grounded? I think this is in reference in your webinar when you're talking about your characters and putting your characters together or how you write your characters for a specific story, and there's a difference between extraordinary and ordinary if you want something extraordinary when you're pairing your characters together.Michael Jamin:Well, yeah, most shows are like that. Most sitcoms, the characters are just normal people. And yeah, it was kind of like ordinary characters, kind of an extraordinary situations where it would've been unusual. I'm trying to think of an example from friends, but alright, so they did an episode where Joey and Joey and what's his name, not Kramer Chandler, the guy Chandler are going to sit in their chairs all episode, all ordinary guys doing something extraordinary. They're not going to move from their chairs and they're going to see if they get everything delivered and they're going to eat and drink and they're not going to get up, stuff like that. So I don't think it's any different from any other sitcom I've worked on other than the characters.Phil Hudson:I just started re-watching How I Met Your Mother, which I've seen who knows how many times. But it's a good background show while I'm working on stuff that's not necessarily logical, analytical stuff. And there's an episode where it's the Halloween party and he's the hanging Chad because he met the sexy pumpkin in 2001 during the election or 1999 or whatever. And so Barney's got tickets to the Victoria's Secret model, Christmas Halloween costume party, and he's trying to get his friend to this extraordinary thing and his friend won't leave. He wants to be at this party to potentially meet this girl on this rooftop again. And it's the push and pull of Come be amazing, stop looking for love, you're losing. So it plays really well in that situation. Alright, cool. AIA Saunders or AIA Sanders, I apologize for ruining that. How do you feel about basing a character on them knowing themselves or basing a character on yourself and your own doubts?Michael Jamin:Yeah, do it all. I mean, you should do it. You should totally mind your own life For stories, and I have a whole module on this in the course, and you can disguise it too, so people don't have to know it's you, but you're just stealing parts of yourself or parts of people as other characters, but you change it enough and change the name, but also change professions and change. You're just stealing attributes from people so they wouldn't know it. But that's what your life is for your life is to steal things fromPhil Hudson:Perfect. Charles Shin, do you have any tips or advice with coming up with great names for your characters?Michael Jamin:I spoke a little bit about this in the old days. We used to have a baby naming book, my partner and I, and then now it's kind of easy to go on the internet or just in life. You'll come across a street name and you go, oh, that's a good last name for a character. I just kind of keep a list. What was one? I had one the other day I added to my list, I can't remember, but it was like a street sign I go that I passed. I go, that's a good character's name.Phil Hudson:Yeah. I've also seen our showrunners on Tacoma fd. There's a random character as Chief Phil Dylan. Well, I'm Phil. It was the writer's pa and I replaced Dylan, the writer's pa.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it's funny. I know they took that for you. I mean, they tend to do that a lot where at least Steve Lemi does. He'll just name characters after people he knows.Phil Hudson:Yeah. There's one line from Ike in an episode that I think you guys wrote. It's like Benjamin Duff or Benjamin CrumpMichael Jamin:AndPhil Hudson:Ben Crump was our DIT set. Right. So just throw people's names and give 'em fun stuff. Awesome. You also talked, I think you talked about funny names that go together too. At one point that was something you do.Michael Jamin:I talked about, I had a character named, what was his name? SomethingPhil Hudson:The third? It was something the fourth. The fourth, yeah. What was hisMichael Jamin:Name? God, I can't remember.Phil Hudson:It was like, but it was a bunch of things together that rhymed almost or had similar names.Michael Jamin:I'd have to look it up. I can't. Oh, Dan Danforth iv. That's what it was. Dan Dan. I had a character named Dan Danforth iv, and I just thought that was a good name because Dan Danforth is weird enough. But why did his parents have to saddle in with the fourth? Because, well, they felt like they had to because the father's the third is a generational thing. They can't, so they stuck this guy with his shitty name and what's that going to, having a name like that, you're going to be teased as a child. And I thought the character is kind of a feckless type and he became a sheriff of a small town as a way of demanding respect because he'd been teased all his life to be named Dan Danforth iv. And so now he has a badge, but people still think he's a dipshit. And so I just thought it was kind of a good name for a character like that, who's kind of feckless.Phil Hudson:Alright, jumping into the course and character related topics, these are a bit intermingled because a lot of what you talked about, and we even brought this up with Mike Repp and Kevin Lewandowski about how valuable that course, that character worksheet is. But because this webinar is about character, there are a lot of questions about character. So number one, pat Nava. How do you make characters that the audience wants to know more about?Michael Jamin:Well, it's not so much the characters, it's just the story you give them. So that's not so much the character. That's the story.Phil Hudson:There we go. Cookies and sugar. How do we make characters diverse and not self projectMichael Jamin:Diverse and not self project? They seem very different questions toPhil Hudson:Me. So this is, I think a really good question and from context for this, this person is a minor and they want to be a writer and they've been told by their well meaning adults in their life and mentors not to do that because it's a waste of time because you'll never make it as a writer. And that was a question she'd asked another point. So this question really speaks to me of something I heard really early on when I was studying, which is you are not your characters. Don't write yourself into your characters, which is kind of contradictory to the advice you give, which is writing your life for stories.Michael Jamin:Why not? I dunno why they would give you that advice. Why not? Yeah, it might've been because people were just writing self-indulgent material that could have been,Phil Hudson:I know on writing by Stephen King, he says that you are not your characters and it is a mistake to think that your characters will behave the way you would. So if you find your character doing something you wouldn't do, it is your job to allow them to do that. And I find that a lot with my writing. There are many things I write where I would never do as someone from a more conservative background who is religiously inclined, like my characters say and do things all the time. I'm like, oh, where did that come from? Not who I am, but that's what it felt like needed to happen as that character was coming through me. And I feel it's my responsibility to just let that happen. But the difference is to me is don't make your characters do and make the actions you would do. And if you're a more passive person, that's not a good thing for your character to be because your character needs to make choices. And that's the conflict of it all.Michael Jamin:But Larry David on Kirby Enthusiasm, he's playing himself, but Larry David is not that person in real life. These are just, it's a heightened version of himself. Larry David knows when to hold his tongue. His character doesn't, his character can't let it go. Larry David just playing. It's a heightened version of himself. It's the worst version of himself, which is why it's so funny he wouldn't do that in real life. I mean, Larry, he wouldn't do that,Phil Hudson:Right? But if you look at yourself, or even friends you have or people that you know and you say, I've got this buddy who is super quiet, but then when he talks it is just cuts with a thousand lashes because he is so sharp, it'll just take the wind out of your sails in a second. So if you have someone and you take that element and you say, I wonder how I can make that funnier. How could I take this tick that I have or that my wife has and just make it, turn it up to 11. That's where the comedy comes from and that's where the conflict comes from. So that's what you're saying by mind your life for stories and put your characters in situations you've been in, but don't do what you did necessarily.Michael Jamin:You could turn it up. Yeah, turn it up a notch. That's it. It makes it fun and interesting.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Cool. Matthew? I think he likes lasagna. Many people begin with an idea for a character. I've always been led by the concept and the plot, then I tailored the characters to fit within it. What are your thoughts on that method?Michael Jamin:Sure. I mean that works fine. I mean, if you can create someone who still feels real, like I said, even though Larry David is a heightened version of himself, it still feels real. It feels like he almost, it's not crazy. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that he would do that. So as your characters don't, as long as it doesn't feel like you're contorting the character to do something that your story requires, which would not be human behavior, at the end of the day, these characters have to be humanPhil Hudson:Like jumping the sharkMichael Jamin:Or jumping the shark. But also often my partner and I will write a scene and Seaver will say something like a character that's not human behavior. We're just making the character do this because two writers in Hollywood need him to say that, which is, I mean, sometimes we'll laugh, we'll say, why would a character say that? And then I'll say that we have four cameras on him and we have to shoot something tonight. But that's not the right answer. The right answer is it has to be human behavior.Phil Hudson:So tangentially related would be DSX, Mina, right? Which is circumstance or coincidence, getting your character out of trouble or solving your problem. So it's not the same, but very similar as it's aMichael Jamin:Lazy writing dem and I believe is Latin for God,Phil Hudson:God in the machine,Michael Jamin:A God or God can get you into trouble or a coincidence can get you into trouble but can't get you out of trouble. So if God comes to the rescue and saves the day, that's considered bad writing. So an example for this that people like to harp on is somehow Palpatine returned. Isn't that his name? Palpatine?Phil Hudson:Yeah, Palpatine.Michael Jamin:Palpatine. I didn't even watch it. I didn't watch it, so I'm not going to badmouth that movie, but that's what people say somehow God came in and everyone seems to roll their eyes at it. And again, I haven't seen it so I really shouldn't say, but that's what I've heard. That would be an example of maybe something that people don't, they went too far.Phil Hudson:Yeah, yeah. How do you introduce characters? I normally have their name, age in a short sentence, which sums up their personality. I then allow them to show their character through their actions.Michael Jamin:Yeah, those are stage direction and no one wants reading stage direct wants to read stage direction. So I usually say what the character's name is exactly a few, maybe a physical attribute or two their age and something about their personality that gets it real fast. Here's a bad description. You see this a lot, Lucy, cute, but doesn't know a girl next door. Cute, but doesn't realize it or sexy, but doesn't know it. How many times have I got to see that and you just roll your eyes. So it's got to be better than that.Phil Hudson:Yeah,Michael Jamin:That's cliche.Phil Hudson:Do you ever put anything related? I've heard other writers recommend putting in cues for clothing to help wardrobe understand how this person dresses or informed character. Is that something you ever consider?Michael Jamin:Only if it's absolutely necessary. If the character wears loose fitting clothing to hide their body, that makes sense. But unless it's absolutely necessary, we can have these discussions at the production meeting. We don't need to know it now in the script unless it absolutely necessary.Phil Hudson:Great. Tom Merrim, when you write characters, do you focus more on the personalities you want added to the mix or focus more on the role each plays or what they need to do in the story?Michael Jamin:And that's what I teach in the course. Every character has to be there for a reason and they have to help elucidate the story or else it's just, you don't want to just mash these. Even if you have 10 great characters, like oh, they're all interesting, but maybe they don't fit together. They have to fit together to tell a story. The story is the look. We all work for the story, the writers, the directors, the actors, we all serve the story and that includes the characters. The story comes first. That's why it's so important to learn what story is.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Great. Justin Kaiser, to develop your characters, do you focus on relationships more than the characters themselves?Michael Jamin:Well, more, I mean, I always think what's the relationship between this character and the other character? I mean, you may need to know that if you have a father and a son and you want to know how they interact and maybe the kid's under the father's thumb and at the end of the show or movie, he's going to stand on his own two feet and defy his father. That's important that you might need to know that. But I don't need, if that's what the story is about, then yeah, I need to know the relationship, but I don't need to have all the answers, just the ones that are pertinent for the story.Phil Hudson:And when you get into the course, you'll learn that there's this awesome sheet that you have that you were provided that was given to you. Was it Steve Levitan gave it to you. And it's basically defining all of these nuances of your character so that you can build them out to be someone unique. And you clearly see a pattern. And this kind of relates back, I think to cookies and sugars question. I'm assuming this is universal, not just to me thing, but definitely a Phil Hudson thing. When I create my characters and I start using that spreadsheet, I start noticing like, oh, they're all very similar. We got to mix that up, so let's fix this, let's fix this. And so those are like, I have specific things I go to or lean towards and it's like I need to fix that. And that allows me to create conflict creates differences in the way people see things. It also empowers me when I'm writing these characters to know how they would talk about this specific thing or react in this situation in a way that empowers the story to be better and serve their role that they've been given.Michael Jamin:Here's an extreme example of that. Let's say you're writing Oceans 11 and you have, I dunno, I guess, or have loving characters or whatever. You got the brainiac, you got the suave guy, you got the bomb cutter, who's a loose cannon, you got the thug, you got the nerd or whatever. Every character in that group has their own distinct, not only personality, but almost archetype of personality. There shouldn't be overlap. And then that's an extreme example, but even if you're writing something more grounded and real or intimate, rather, you'll ask, you'll have the same conversations with yourself. So why do I have two heart throb characters? I only need one. You want to have different viewpoints. In the episode, we talked a little bit about love. Actually in the last podcast we talked about, we did a q and a and I mentioned love actually is about looking at love on Christmas time from whatever, 15, how many storylines, whatever, eight storylines. And each character has a very specific kind of role. And there's no, and there shouldn't be. If there is, we don't need two characters for that same point of view. This is a work of art. You don't need two, just one.Phil Hudson:Yeah. And going back to how I met your mother, there's really three kind of four different characters there in this group. There's a couple, Marshall and Lily, there's Ted, our protagonist, and there's Barney, and then there's Robin. And they all reflect this different opinion about relationships and dating in New York City. You've got the couple that have been together since college and they're together and they just love each other all the time. The ones seeking true love, the player who just wants to hook up with as many women as he can. Ironically played by Neil Patrick Harris, who's gay, and he does a great job of playing that person. And then you have Robin who is afraid of love and kind of withdraws from love and that creates that ecosystem where they're all playing off of eachMichael Jamin:Other. They all have different viewpoints. Yeah.Phil Hudson:I'll also say I'm working on this feature that I haven't written a feature in a long time and I got the story that I really like and it centers around a family situation. And I'm thinking about my family and my brothers and my relationship with my siblings. And it's like we were all raised the same. We are all very different people. We have fights because there are things we absolutely disagree on, but then there's always this layer of relationship. And we had understanding that even when we get really mad at each other to a certain degree, we know we're always going to come back together. Except there's always that thing dangling out there that maybe we won't. And I have one sibling who's like that. I don't know that I could have a same conversation with her that I could with my older brother the same way I would. She may never want to talk to me again because he's just a bit more sensitive. So it's like, okay, how do I look at all of these relationships here? And just because we all come from the same place and we had almost the same experiences. We are all very different.So Cameron Barnes, he said, Michael said, a cast of characters should be in constant conflict, but does that actually just mean constant conflict throughout the story?Michael Jamin:What else would it mean? I mean,Phil Hudson:Yeah, I dunno.Michael Jamin:I don't know. I mean, yeah, conflictPhil Hudson:Doesn't, lemme talk about the constant conflict. Maybe just address that.Michael Jamin:Well, conflict doesn't have to be people fighting. It could be passive aggressive. It could be people caring very much for each other, the mother, and you've seen this trope before, the mother, the overbearing mother, trying to get the daughter to be happy and settle down and find a man, whatever. She's just in her life that's conflict. A mother who's constantly meddling and she means well and the daughter knows she means well, but she keeps stepping on her toes. You've seen that story a million times. We've seen it because it works. So that's conflict. But if it was, what about a show where everyone was always getting along? Well, that's boring, unfortunately that's just boring. That's the scene right? Before everything goes south, that's what that is. You have one scene like that and then it goesPhil Hudson:South. And it's not that it's all okay that people are just kind of egg shelling, walking on eggshells around each other to maintain the peace in this moment, right? Yeah, because it's going to go nuts at any moment. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Drama is conflict, guys. So that's it. Drama is conflict,Phil Hudson:But that's also just life. And I think that's why we watch it. Life is not perfect harmony at all times with everybody. There's things,Michael Jamin:But even if you had a scene where young couple's in love and everything's great. Okay, great. What's one scene they met boy meets girl, they fall in love. Great. How many,Phil Hudson:Why do you leave the towels on the floor? He leaves theMichael Jamin:Towel. Yeah, something's going to have to happen wherePhil Hudson:When you take your toothbrush out of your mouth, it flicks toothpaste on the mirror and you never clean it. Right? That's the stuff that eats at couples.Michael Jamin:Yeah. So you need stuff like that. Everyone loves Raymond. They were a happy couple, they had a happy marriage, but you still have to fight Rose, what are we watching?Phil Hudson:But that's also fighting in a relationship is what makes your relationship better. If you can get through those things. And fighting doesn't mean screaming and yelling and throwing stuff at each other. It could just be disagreements or heated conversations is like you got to get through the conflict, come to a resolution,Michael Jamin:Right?Phil Hudson:This thing bothers me. This thing bothers you. How are we going to fix this? We live together and we're going to be together forever. So let's figure this out. It's going to bother me every day forever.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:Matthew Lavania back. What's the difference between a villain and an antagonist?Michael Jamin:I don't know. I mean a villain I guess is an arch formative, a villain sounds like it's something that's a heightened antagonist. That's what it sounds like. An antagonist doesn't have to be a villain. It could just, if you have, like I said, a daughter and a mother and the mother's overbearing, then the mother's an antagonist. Doesn't mean she's a villain. The stepmother's the villain in Cinderella. So it's just a heightened antagonist I suppose. But we're splitting hair. I don't think we have to worry about that really. I mean it's like an academic question. I could thinkPhil Hudson:You might say Thanos in the Marvel universe is the villain because he's got this big existential threat. But I think one of the things you highlight definitely in my writing is your antagonist still needs to be likable. Not likable in the sense, but we need to understand that they think they're the hero. And in this case, Thanos wants to prevent genocide because his world went through this. And so his way of doing, it's by killing half the people in existence to prevent this thing from happening.Michael Jamin:Think about land from Quentin Tarantino's,Phil Hudson:GloriousMichael Jamin:Bastards and glorious bastards. What a great villain. I mean, he was a great villain. He was the Jew hunter, the Nazi man that was a badass guy. But he was complex and there was something so about him, even though what he was doing was so incredibly vile and offensive. And so that's when you humanize your villain, you make it. It makes your writing so much richer. I mean the fact that he spoke so many languages and he was educated. He'sPhil Hudson:Charismatic. Yeah,Michael Jamin:He was charismatic and yet stillPhil Hudson:And very polite. Thank you so much for inviting. Yeah,Michael Jamin:VeryPhil Hudson:Inviting, inviting. May I ask you for some milk?Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:The Jews are underneath me right now, aren't they? Yeah.Michael Jamin:And you just didn't know where you stood with the guy. So he was just a very nice guy doing awful, awful things. So that's great writingPhil Hudson:That scene when he's sitting down with Ana, I'd like to go over the theater and he's vetting her and he's putting cream down for her and he's like, he knows who she is. It is unspoken subtext. He is aware that this is the girl that got away. You see it in her reaction when she leaves and she's hyperventilating and she just kept it togetherMichael Jamin:And he was like a mercenary.Phil Hudson:Then you find out later that that's all part of his plan. This is how he's going to get out.Michael Jamin:Great writing. That's all that is. That's all that movie is great writing,Phil Hudson:Which is followed up byMichael Jamin:Great actingPhil Hudson:And great production and great editing and great everything. That'sMichael Jamin:All that was though.Phil Hudson:Alright. Luke felt. How do you ensure that the story around the character matches the lesson that they need to learn?Michael Jamin:Can you say that again? How do I ensure?Phil Hudson:So this is a presupposition that your character needs to learn something by the end of your script. So how do you ensure that the story around that character gets them to the point that they learn something?Michael Jamin:Well, okay, I don't believe characters have to learn anything. I do think they have to grow or else why did you put 'em on a journey? If not to them it has to be you're changed in some way. If you take a character and you take 'em to the top of Mount Everest, they have to be changed in some way or else why did you take 'em there? So it doesn't mean they have to learn a lesson, they could be worse off. But if your why stories is a journey and why go on the journey if we're not going to get a view and the view better be something interesting, why did you take me on this long trip? And if the character didn't in some way change or grow, it doesn't mean learn a lesson, just change in some small way. Why didn't we take 'em on that trip? Why did we go there? Why did you waste our time? And by the way, there are bad movies where this doesn't happen and I always feel like, well, why did you just waste my time? And so just because there's bad writing out there doesn't mean we have to participate in it. It doesn't mean we have to add to it.Phil Hudson:I think there's an inclination, and I've seen this in myself and many other writers in film school and definitely here in Los Angeles, that you want to buck the trend and buck the system and you don't want to follow story structure and you want to do your own thing. It's almost like you want to reinvent the world of writing and you also want to play into tragedy and disappoint, defeat audience expectations and all these things. And that's artful writing. And I think what I've learned from you in the course and being in the writer's room is that those things serve a purpose and you can still do those things, but you do it in a surprising way and it works because there's a structure to it.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I mean, everyone wants to reinvent writing, reinvent the story. Look, the story works. It's been working for thousands of years. You can make a good living writing compelling story. And when I watch a story that's compelling and that works, I don't think, wow, they just reinvented the story. I don't think that, I just think they told a really good story. I feel like they're doing what I'm doing, but maybe better or on a higher level. I don't think they just completely change with some small exceptions sometimes. I'll watch, for example, inception, Christopher Nolan, I, I've watched it four times. I still don't know what it's about. I still can't follow it. It's obviously a great movie, but I don't think we have to all write like that in order to tell a great story.Phil Hudson:And I think he just announced what is happening. He just revealed that during the Oppenheimer interviews. You can go look that up on the Google if anybody's in. But yeah, I mean that's his style and it's very much his cscope, I think is what it is. Or Cscope, his logo is a maze. It's elaborate. He's kind of telling you this is his way of tellingMichael Jamin:Stories. That's how he does it and that's how he thinks.Phil Hudson:It started with Memento and it started with even other stuff he directed but didn't write, which I'm blanking on it, but it's like one in Alaska and it's psychological thriller. But yeah, all of his stuff is that, and that's his motif and his style.Michael Jamin:I'd go so far as to say that the guy's kind of a genius. And so unless you think you're a genius too, maybe don't try to reinvent. I don't think I'm a genius. But that said, I couldn't write anything like Memento. It hurts my head to think about it. And I enjoyed a memento and Inception really loved it. I couldn't come close to it. I write, what I do is I write comedy and I'm very good at that. My one little thing, and that's okay. We all have our one little thing that we're good at and you have to just lean into it. Christopher Nolan doesn't write comedy, which is good. He has a sing that he does and we love what he does. We don't all have to be experts at everything.Phil Hudson:Right? Yeah. Justin Kaiser, how do you decide that another character is needed to advance the story or if that attribute moral personality can be added to another existing character?Michael Jamin:IPhil Hudson:Guess kind of the question is how do you know when you have enough characters in your story?Michael Jamin:Well, it's a little different. If you're writing a TV show, if a TV show you need to write, you have to have a cast and it has to be conflict. You want to have, let's say five or six characters that always are going to always be in conflict with each other week in and week out as you tell different stories. If you're writing a movie, you really want to think about who's the star of this movie, or if it's a two hander, who are the stars, if it's a buddy cop movie or whatever, you have two cops or it's a buddy movie or a road trip movie. You have these two characters and you only have the other characters as needed to help tell the story, the journey you're putting those two characters on. So if you take a good example, because we're mentioning Buddy comedies, midnight Run, so Charles Groden and Robert De Niro. It's a buddy comedy you're putting and a road trip, comedy, whatever, not so much a comedy but drama and you're putting them on an adventure, so you just need obstacles to throw in their ways. So you have Dennis Farinas character who's the mobster, but we're not following Dennis Farinas story. We're following Robert De Niro's relationship with Charles. That's it. Everyone else is there to help. Tell Robert De Niro's story and Charles Groton's story.Phil Hudson:Yeah, easy Rider, very similar, right? You've got these two bikers and you've got their lawyer Jack, Jack nickles, and then it, it's about them. And that's experience of going across America right in the seventies. It's not about the hippies they meet at the Waterhole in Santa Fe. It's about those and what happens to them as they go through America, Julia Wells, and how do you prevent the worst characters from being so far outside their wheelhouse that they can't possibly succeed or it becomes unbelievable. And this is in reference to this kind of golden nugget you've been talking about recently in your Yeah,Michael Jamin:Everyone please come to my webinars about this one's about character. She's talking about character, but I do another one on story and they're free. You go to michael tamer.comPhil Hudson:And you're going to get a lot of these questions for people. A lot of this is coming out of, it's in context in the webinar. So you're hearing this lesson and these very important principles for writers, and these are questions coming out of that. And this is one of

On this week's episode, I have content creation expert "Coco Mocoe”. Tune in as we talk about her unique eye on how to spot trends for the future, as well as what different social media platforms due for creators. We also discuss her thoughts on brand deals and what she looks for and her hopes and goals for the future. Show NotesCoco Mocoe on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cocomocoe/Coco Mocoe on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@cocomocoe?lang=enCoco Mocoe on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@UC7MC6lTh3ui3_id2n-vnlPQMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptsCoco Mocoe:Again, also with TikTok, it's always about reinventing, even though I always talk about marketing, but I feel like every three months I have to find a new way to present the same information that I've been talking about. So truly the best creators are the ones that are able to reinvent themselves, even though they're still providing the same information, but finding new ways to bring it to the feedMichael Jamin:You're listening to, what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity, I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts.Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back. I have a very interesting guest for everyone today. So anyone who's listening to my podcast for any amount of time, I've always said, if you want to break into Hollywood, just start doing it. Stop asking permission, start. Just make it count on social media and just start posting whatever it is you want to be good at. Make a dedicated account to proving how good you are at this one thing, whether it's writing, performing music, whatever it is, and let's just see where it goes from there. Because if you can't do that, well then Hollywood's not going to pay you to do it. You got to do it for yourself. And so my next guest is an expert in this field because not only does she make a living out of predicting trends about people who've done this before, but she's doing it herself in building her own presence online. And content absolutely is essential. I turn to it when I have questions. So please welcome Coco Moko. Thank you so much. Coco Moko, which I love your name by the way.Coco Mocoe:Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It's so funny when I made my username, my real name's Colleen, but I go by Coco Moko, and when I made the name, I didn't know my account would blow up, and so my managers were like, let's keep it though. It has a good ring to it. It does.Michael Jamin:But tell me, okay, so I know you've made a living at it doing this, but before you started doing it for yourself, who were you working for?Coco Mocoe:Yes. It's such a great story too. It was kind of divine timing, I guess. So I studied marketing in college, and then after college, my family's from the LA area, so I was super lucky to just live in LA. And I started a job that I got off Craigslist, and it ended up being this website called Famous Birthdays. I don't know if you've heard of it. It's very Gen Z Young. It's kind of like Wikipedia, but at the time, famous Birthdays was the only website really documenting YouTubers and at the time, musically kids. And so we had a really big audience of 12 year olds. And so I got hired there and my job was to run the musically, which had then turned to TikTok. So I was on the app early, and then the founder of Famous Birthdays, his name's Evan, he's like, if you ever see someone on your free page that you think is going to be famous, just invite them in and we'll interview them.And shortly after that was when I saw Charlie Delio when she was really early. We invited her in and we were her first ever interview, and that went super viral. And then there was a few others from that kind of era of kids and because of the videos that I was working on at Famous birthdays that were getting, I think one of the videos with Charlie Delios at 40 million Views on YouTube. And because we got an early, so, but then from there, I then got hired at buzzfeed, and I was at Buzzfeed for three and a half years where I was working on the backend with strategy, coming up with videos, and it was really just my job to go into meetings with different brands and creators and stuff and just tell them what I think the upcoming trends will be, how I think platforms are shifting, mainly TikTok and how I think that they can best create ideas that will go viral or work with people that aren't famous enough yet that they're going to decline but are eager to come in. And so that was really where I got the start with predicting and stuff, and where I learned that I had a good eye for pattern recognition, and then I just started making my own tos. That kind of blew up. And then I quit my full-time job in June of this year and have been just doing full-time stuff since.Michael Jamin:And so now you have close to a million followers, which is huge. Thank you.Coco Mocoe:Yeah.Michael Jamin:Then so, okay, so when you work for yourself, what does that mean?Coco Mocoe:Yeah, so I never really thought that I would go the consultant route. It was something that kind of just happened as a result of the videos that I was making. I never posted my trend prediction videos or algorithm decoding kind of videos with the intention of getting hired, but I was getting so many inquiries from really big brands that wanted to just pick my brain for an hour or so when I was at buzzfeed. And then I just felt, I mean, it was the different legal non-compete clauses and stuff. And so I just eventually realized that financially it made more sense to just take an hour meeting with a brand and make what I would've made in a month. And I'm so lucky you never know how long it's going to last. I'm very, very lucky. So that's kind of what the full-time thing is. Consulting sometimes brand deals. I don't always like to do a ton of brand deals. I don't want my account to just feel like one big commercial. And then I've been lucky enough to have a lot of music people actually reach out to me and I consult on the music side as well, so super lucky. ButMichael Jamin:Yeah. Okay. So big brands want your opinions, but are you saying also that the creators as well want your opinions?Coco Mocoe:Yeah, a lot of creators, and I actually, that's why I made the podcast that I have ahead of the curve, which hopefully you'll be able to come on one day when your book comes out. Yeah, I love that. And I do my podcast because I can't meet with everyone, and so I started doing that for a way to reach more of the creators. But yeah, I do have a lot of creators reach out. I feel like bandwidth wise, it's hard. So I try to find ways to reach out to people in my community that isn't always just a money exchange or a meeting and stuff. So I'm still figuring it out, but I've been very lucky since I went full-time with this.Michael Jamin:You must know this, or I'm hoping. So when a musician, an actor or whatever comedian, when they're reaching out to you or they're following you, what is it do you think they want, do you think they just want to blow up on social media or do they want to move to what I do traditional Hollywood?Coco Mocoe:Yeah. No, it's such a good question, and I think a lot of it when I do get more of the bigger celebrities that have followed me every now and then, I'm always like, I don't know. At first I'd be like, I don't know why. I don't know what value I'm even providing them. I remember one time Paris Hilton followed me and I was like, she is the biggest influencer in the world. And I'm like, what could I potentially provide to someone like that through my videos? But I think a lot of it too is just when I've talked to people who have followed me, whether it's an actor or a musician or just a person who's watching tos and has never made one before. A lot of the times they say that they like that my videos are able to take something happening on the algorithm or on marketing and media, but I kind of give a bigger lens to it as well.I'm able to connect the dots to everyone, whether you're watching it, whether you are the one making the content and really simplifying it and not just making, I think a lot of when I would watch marketing videos and stuff, it would be a lot of broy ad talk, which that's important talk too, but I never really related to the AB and that kind of stuff. I liked being like, this is why this person watched it. So anyways, I think that if it is an actor or musician following me, I think some of it is just curiosity. I don't think they always have the intention of using my videos as strategy, but when they do, I think it's because as working in entertainment, it really is an attention economy, and the way that people give their attention is constantly shifting. You could make the best piece of work and you just never know if the attention's going to be there or not. I think them watching my helps maybe dissect why certain things go viral, but again, you never know. You never really know. It's just always up in the air. But I try to bring sense to it.Michael Jamin:It changes. Everything changes so fast. Whatever the algorithm, whatever the new trend, whatever's going on, changes fast. And I feel like you always seem to be on top of it. How are you on top? Are you just watching videos all day and making lists and stuff? What are you doing?Coco Mocoe:Yes. It's so funny. I get that question all the time. I do spend a good amount of time on TikTok. I try not to because I think sometimes I believe in there's this saying, and it's the universe whispers, and it's essentially this idea that once you finally turn off your phone and the TV and the for you page scrolling and you just sit in silence for a little bit, that's when the ideas will come to you. So I do try to take moments away from my phone, but I would say for me, I do spend a lot of time on my phone and watching the algorithm, but I try to be strategic about it, and I do have notes on my phone. I'm constantly writing down ideas, and this sounds really woo woo, but sometimes my most viral ideas actually come to me in if I'm sleeping or something. I think it's this weird moment where it's all the information I've received throughout the day finally comes into me and I absorb it in a way, and then I wake up and I'll film a video. That's why I always film right first thing in the morning. And those are sometimes my most viral videos. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Well, a couple questions for you. So now when I first got on TikTok, okay, I got a lot of followers. I'm like, well, why do I have all these? What's the point of followers? When your reach is so low, why do they give you that metric? If you have half a million followers and on any given day, 10, 20,000 will see your content,Coco Mocoe:That happens to me and I have an algorithm answer for that. And then I also have something that helps me when I'm making videos that happens to even the biggest creators. But one way that I still feel inspired to make content and don't get down on myself when that happens is I think the creator, Chris Olson said it. He's a pretty big talker. And one time he said, yeah, 300 views feels really low for the first hour of a video being up. But imagine if you were in a lecture hall and 300 people walked in, that would be a really exciting feeling. You'd be nervous to speak to that many people. And even if I get three or five comments the first few hours, I think, well, I just gave a lecture, and that essentially is three people came up to me after and wanted to ask me more questions about it.So that's one way I try to still think that I'm adding value. And I feel like the biggest thing I hear from whether it's creators, celebrities, or brands, is, and it happens to everyone. So it's a universal experience, especially on TikTok. They always say, I feel like the algorithm hates me now. I feel like I'm shadow banned. And I agree. I think that things like that happen on the algorithm. What I think happens sometimes, I wonder if TikTok will inflate numbers every now and then where I'm like, I don't know if I actually got that many views, or it's almost like a lottery. I think that they gamified creating content in a way that almost feels like gambling, where you're rewarded for doing it more and more. But then it also can be exhausting and disorienting. And I think one thing that I've noticed sometimes happens is that one, people consume videos on their for you page and not always their following.I don't really know a lot of people that use the following tab to watch videos. So TikTok is so weird. I could follow a creator and never see one of their videos again. Yeah, it's just, it rewards people for finding new creators every day. But one more logistical piece of advice that I've heard and that I theorize, I don't know. I say it's like a Tin hat theory about the algorithm, but I think that TikTok, there's a human element to it, and they specifically push out certain trends or certain things happening in the news, and then when they're ready to shift to a new trend, whether it's because they have brands that want to promote something on their app or whatever it is, they will not necessarily shadow ban certain creators, but they shadow ban certain hashtags. That's just a theory I have. What often happens when I talk to people when they're experiencing it is I'll tell them to pull back on all of their hashtags, don't use any hashtags, and sometimes that will subvert any, it takes a while.But yeah, so basically what I'm saying is when it does feel like the algorithm hates you, it's usually not just you, it's just that the topic that you're talking about, they feel like it no longer is relevant for whatever reason, and they're shifting to something new. And again, also at TikTok, it's always about reinventing, even though I always talk about marketing, but I feel like every three months I have to find a new way to present the same information that I've been talking about. So truly, the best creators are the ones that are able to reinvent themselves, even though they're still providing the same information, but finding new ways to bring it to the feed. If TikTok is enjoying videos that are longer than a minute, making videos that are longer than a minute, if TikTok is preferring green screen videos going into green screen. So it really is kind of this tango that you play, butMichael Jamin:Ultimately it seems like, I'm sorry, like a vanity metric that they give you, which doesn't do any, okay, so why are you telling me this number?Coco Mocoe:Exactly. I 100% agree, and it's why I think it's great. You have your podcast, and I've heard you on other podcasts when I was looking up things about the strike, I remember listening to you as a guest on podcasts, and that's why I always encourage people, do not let TikTok be your number one. That can be your Trojan horse. It can get you exposure, and it can get you into the room that you want to be in, but it is not sustainable. TikTok is so finicky one day it'll love you. The next three months, it'll hate you. So really having things outside of TikTok that your audience, I always say have a home base outside of TikTok, so a podcast or whatever it is. So yeah, I totally rambled. I'm sorry, but I get that question a lot. Yeah, it's a good question.Michael Jamin:The whole thing. I also have a feeling after being on the app for so long that the number of serious content creators who post every day, for some reason, I feel like it's a much smaller, they won't tell you how many is, but it feels like it's a much smaller number than you might think it is. Do you feel that way?Coco Mocoe:Yeah. Are you saying you feel like there's less people posting than you would think or,Michael Jamin:Yeah, but seriously, every day who were like, okay, I'm committing to do it. Some people are just, alright, here's a silly video of me eating ice cream, and then they won't post again for another 10 months or whatever. But for the people who really trying to build a platform, I feel like that number is actually maybe lower than you'd think.Coco Mocoe:Yeah. So yeah, I think what it is is a lot of people, it's very, I think TikTok is really great in that it's one of the first ever apps I've seen where so many people have gone viral and reached audiences that we would've never thought of. I have found so many new creators on TikTok, whereas on YouTube, I'd find a new creators I was excited about maybe once every three months. But I think what it is is like, yeah, sustaining that is so hard. I think that what happens is people often, most origin stories on TikTok are, some people will go into it strategically, but the video that really blows up and puts them on the map, they never would've guessed it would've been that video or why it was that video. They never really know. And so I think that some people just don't have, they get excited, but they can't necessarily sustain it.And that's why I always think that the creators that have a slow burn are the ones who end up being the most successful in the long run. I'm sure that's even something that kind of in some ways applies to the entertainment industry, but I always think of the biggest creator in the world right now is Mr. Beast. And it took him five years to hit his first 100,000 followers, but I think that that length of time is why when he did finally get lucky, he had the daily habits and the muscle and the mental stamina to withstand that attention. Whereas some creators will have this stroke of luck, and then the moment the algorithm is no longer rewarding them in a month or two, they kind of freak out and just abandon it. Or they'll only post once every few weeks because they're ashamed that they aren't getting the numbers that they were. But it's just so normal. It's just the biggest creators.Michael Jamin:But to what end is all this, why is everyone doing this? Is it, I mean, I can see why you do it. You have a business now, but why is everyone else doing this?Coco Mocoe:I think it's two things. I think one, TikTok made it really easy to post. The barrier to entry is very low. And on YouTube, if you really wanted to go viral on YouTube five years ago, it would've taken understanding, editing to some degree, understanding how to upload certain files to your computer. I mean, those things are so hard. It would've taken the knowledge of figuring out how to make thumbnails. And the barrier to entry was just so high for platforms like YouTube, TikTok made it really easy that anyone could go viral. And I think the why, what's to what end? I think the people that have a kind of north star outside of TikTok are the ones that are successful, the ones that have something they're striving. For me, I feel like my best videos don't come from me saying, I want to go viral today.They come from me saying something like, oh, I have this hour long interview that I did, and I want to feed people to that. Let me just make a video, giving them the best moment. And so I think that the why version, what's the bigger thing? We're striving for every creator. It's different, but if you are only striving for TikTok fame, it's so fleeting. And that's never, again, I say TikTok, it's like the Trojan horse. It's just going to get you in the room, but it's not going to do the talking for you. It's not going to make the business deals. It just gets you in a room that you might not have been in otherwise.Michael Jamin:And so what are the rooms, do you think it's people are trying to become actors, so they're trying to blow up, whatever, I'm goofy here now, put in your TV show. Is that what it is?Coco Mocoe:Yeah, I mean, it could be. I guess everyone's different. I know. I think there's this one guy, I don't know if you saw it, I think a year or two ago, and he made videos. He made comedic videos, and he made one video about wanting to be on SNL, and the internet was really hard on him, and I didn't feel like I see that it was fair. Yeah. I was like, okay, this is someone shooting their shot. Good for him. He didn't put anyone down in the process. He didn't step on anyone. It was a video that took obviously planning and thought. And I think also maybe he reposted it recently and that's why it's at top of mind and it's going viral again, but now there's a positive sentiment around it. So I do think that, and to answer your question, I do think that specifically for actors, there's a Pandora's box with TikTok because it does get you in a room.And I could be wrong. I feel like you probably know more about this than me, but I feel like with actors, they have to be very strategically pulled back. They don't want to reveal too much about themselves personally because it could hurt them in terms of being typecast or getting into character, I think could be harmed. If people are like, oh, I remember them making a TikTok where they failed at making iced coffee one day and it spilled all over their dog. No one will ever take them seriously. So I think actors, it's a little tricky. It's like a Pandora's box. They go viral, but it's really hard for that to be taken seriously, I think, by audiences sometimes, but I do think some will be able to do it.Michael Jamin:Is that your theory, or are you hearing this from actors from creators who tried to break it and are getting that feedback?Coco Mocoe:I mean, no, I guess for me, it really is more of a theory and just me watching one of the really big comedic talkers who was on TikTok for years, and she doesn't do it as much anymore, but her name's Brittany Broski. I don't know if you've heard of her. No. She was pretty big. She had a few memes that went viral, and she has millions of followers, but I think she would make a really great SNL cast member. I think that she's really funny and smart, and I could see that in the cards for her one day. But right now she's just doing a podcast as herself and not just doing, I mean, that's huge. But I think that she's one of the bigger creators that I think of in terms of being an actor on TikTok. And I don't know that we've seen someone be able to translate that to a big role yet. I think we will. We just haven't seen it yet, because there is this weird dynamic between the audience and the actor that other influencers don't really have to worry about.Michael Jamin:Well, I wish I knew the name. There's someone named Nurse Blake. You heard of him? No. Okay. Because a comedian, but a nurse, he sells out venues doing I guess comedy, but he's also a nurse. I'm like, I don't understand if you're selling out these giant venue news, what's with this other gig you got? So I just don't get it. I don't get any of it.Coco Mocoe:Well, and what's funny, the thing about what you just explained is really fascinating to me, and it's something I talked about last year where I coined it the rise of the anti influencer, but essentially him having something like another job, whether that's still happening or not, I think audiences are drawn to that because they feel like there's less pressure on them if the influencer doesn't succeed. It's like, well, they have another job, and so they actually are more likely to be open to the person. So oddly, I think having that kind of double life in a way lends to an audience feeling less pressure. And that did make me remember that in terms of the comedic route and acting and stuff, there was one standup comedian, his name's Matt Rife.Michael Jamin:Yes. And I just learned about him. So go on. I had never heard of him until go on.Coco Mocoe:And I think he's one of those people where it's like Mr. Beast, where he had been trying to do the standup comedy route for five or seven years, and he started just posting clips from his shows on TikTok, and he went on a tour last year, and he filmed a Netflix special that hasn't aired yet, but Forbes, he was on the Forbes top creator list, and they estimated that he had made 25 million last year.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I saw that article. I'm floored.Coco Mocoe:Yes. I don't know how they calculate. I don't know. But if it's even just 2.5 million, that's a crazy number for someone who was struggling as a standup comedian, began posting clips of it to TikTok and is now selling out venues, and it's crazy. It'sMichael Jamin:Mind blowing. And yeah, it's just a platform. And I give him a lot of credit. I mean, made himself, he willed it to be, but I mean, I guess, I don't know. I know you guys were talking, you and your podcasting party we're talking about, and what's the name of your pocket, by the way, so everyone canCoco Mocoe:Talk? Oh, yeah. So I have my main one, it's ahead of the curve with Coco Mocoe. That one's my solo one where I just talk to experts like yourself and stuff. And then I have a show with my friend, his name's Nikki Rearden, called Share Your Screen, where each week we dive into whatever's happening in the news or in marketing and talk about why we think certain things are going viral. So a lot of people that see the clips from my profile, it's usually the clips of me and Nikki. So I'm guessing that's whatMichael Jamin:It might've been. But you guys were talking about the newest trend, which is basically, I guess people like me sharing expertise in some kind of attempt to what,Coco Mocoe:Yeah, I mean, I think experts are what make TikTok my favorite app because it takes people who maybe didn't have time or the career background to study, again, film theory and cameras and microphones and how to sync up audio and all these things, but they're able to make really good videos because of the TikTok editing software within the app. And yeah, I mean, I used this saying on TikTok where it's called the niche, here you go, the Quicker You Grow. It's a saying that I came up with when I was at buzzfeed, and I would say in every meeting. And what I meant by that is people have this misconception that in order to go viral, you have to hit the masses. You have to make a cool football moment and also tap dance and also paraglide and tell a funny joke all in 30 seconds in the same video. And I am like, that's not really how it works. The best videos are very niche, and that's kind of why experts grow on the app. You are known as the Hollywood writer, and I think I was telling one of my friends that I was going on your pod, and when I said that they knew exactly who you were. And it's just that thing where it's like you would rather be known for, or another way I say it is you want to be great at one thing on social media, then be average at everything. But ifMichael Jamin:You're 20 years old, what are you great at?Coco Mocoe:Yeah, and I think that's a great question. That's why, and I don't think 20 year olds are people that are still, even people in their midlife or older don't always have to start their account and just stick to one thing. I think part of social media is exploring different parts of your identity and seeing what people to respond to. So I think that's why we do see a lot of the younger kids online are more lifestyle influencers. Their day is, I mean, I'm 27 now. When I was between the ages of 19 and 23, I felt like my life something different changed every single day. And it was interesting. But if I did lifestyle content, now my life is very normal and stable that I always say, I'm like, I'm not interesting. The things I talk about are interesting. So that's why I think there's a lot of lifestyle creators that are younger. Their life is constantly changing as it does when you're in your early twenties. But TikTok is really where I feel like we've seen older people in midlife. And on the other apps on Instagram, I felt like you had to be an 18 year old model traveling the world to be interesting to the algorithm. And it's not like that on TikTok. And I would say YouTube's similar to TikTok in that way too. ButMichael Jamin:Yeah, I don't know. I can't grow on YouTube. I could do well, this platform on TikTok, but Oh, I had a question. No, I lost it. Can you believe I lost it? No, you're good. Yeah. Well, now we'll have to take a pause as I try to remember what I was going to say, but Oh, yeah, no, I know what I was going to say. So you are in an interesting position in that you share your expertise on this, on becoming, I don't know, a creator or an influencer and all that, but you also do that. So talk a little bit about that. When you post, okay, you know what you're going to say to help, this is the trend you're spotting, or this is who's blowing up. You want to talk, but you also have to make a video where you are performing where you are. You're not just sharing your knowledge, you are a creator as well.Coco Mocoe:I know it's kind of meta. It's meta. Now we've entered the age of social media where creators are making platforms, talking about being a creator. I mean, yeah, I guess for me, I am really lucky that my audience likes when I talk about those things, and I don't have to necessarily divulge a bunch of information about my personal life and stuff. I think some creators do get into a predicament where their whole brand is built on their relationship, and then maybe their relationship ends, unfortunately, and they have to rebrand. And so I'm very lucky that my audience just likes when I talk about what's happening. And it's funny because when I started talking about these things, I didn't actually think that people really cared. Crazy story is when I first started my TikTok and some of my followers found me through, this is, it sounds so woo, but I actually, I did tarot.Me and my friends do tarot for fun, and I would make a few tarot videos, and they went viral. And then I realized that there's 15 year olds making way better tarot videos than I ever could. I'm like, the world's going to be okay if these 15 year olds, they're doing their messages and it's great, and if that's what you believe in and you like that content, they've got it covered. And so I told my audience, I was like, okay, you guys. And I could tell the algorithm was shifting away from that, and it just wasn't exciting anymore. And I was a professional and it was just a hobby that I did, and I told my audience, I was like, I'm going to take a break from my TikTok and I think I'm going to come back to the internet. I think you guys are going to find me, but it's going to look different, and I don't know what that's going to be yet.And at the time, again, I was working at buzzfeed. I talked about these things in my nine to five, and I always thought it was, I loved it, but I thought it would be boring to other people, like the whole marketing, the trends, the algorithm. I thought that that was having an accountant talk about math. Then I took a break from my account for a little bit. I would make every videos every now then, but then one day before a meeting, I had five minutes and I made a video that was a trend prediction, and it got I think 4 million views in two days. And within a week, I was getting booked to go speak at Adweek in New York and all of these crazy doors opened. And so it was funny that for me, I always was doing marketing, and I just never thought until I made that video randomly that anyone actually cared about that. But I guess a lot of people did. And I'm very lucky that a lot of people did. And I have been riding the wave ever since. And I feel like as long as there's new trends and new people getting viral and new things happening online, I'll always have something new to talk about, and I'll never get bored.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my content and I know you do because you're listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people like you can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michaeljamin.com. And now back to what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about?I have rules that I played by how many days, how many times a day will you post and how many days a week? Because it can get out of hand. It can get so much where you are working for the app now.Coco Mocoe:Yes, there are days where I'll post a lot and there's days where I just won't do anything. I mean, it really depends on my schedule. Each day when I was first starting and just doing green screen videos with my trend predictions and algorithm things, I would probably film two or three a day. But now also that TikTok rewards longer content. I don't know if you do that minute or longer type videos. Oh,Michael Jamin:I do. It's always at least three minutes. Yeah.Coco Mocoe:Yes. And are you in the creativity beta program?Michael Jamin:No. No. I want to talk about that.Coco Mocoe:Okay.Michael Jamin:Well, good. Hang on to that.Coco Mocoe:Okay, good, good, good. Now, TikTok has the beta program, which I'm in, and when I know that's not going to last forever, but when I got my first check from that, I was like, oh, that's a good chunk of money. Now, when I do film videos, it really is my job. I see. Every time I film a video that's a minute or longer, I'm like, okay, that is a certain amount of money that I could make. But I will say probably on average I'll post three to five videos depending on my mood, and then I'll usually take a day or two off and I'll film in studio or something. So it really just depends. But I think that now that I've grown a little bit, I do think I do more quality over quantity, whereas the first few months where I really blew up doing this kind of thing, I was posting a lot. I was riding the wave. And now that I think I have credibility and a few really good videos under my belt, I can do a little bit less and people will pay attention and seek out my content. Now, are youMichael Jamin:Worried though, that being the creator studio will limit? This is for those who don't know, this is when TikTok will pay you. You post a video and they pay you depending on how views you have. Are you worried that it'll limit your views, your reach?Coco Mocoe:So that's a great question because, and again, tin Hat theory, I don't know, but for those of you guys who were on the app a couple of years ago, they had this thing called the Creator Fund. And I ran experiments on accounts at my, and through creators I worked with at my old job where we would enroll into the creator fund. And let's say they were getting on average 5 million views a month, and we would enroll into the creator fund and their views would drop to a hundred thousand a month, and they couldn't get a video with over 2000 views. And I personally think it was TikTok was capping the money because they were pulling the money out of thin air. They didn't have ads on the platform didn't, it's not like YouTube where it's ad sent, so it's not out of YouTube's pocket. It's like Google paid Red Bull paid to put an ad on a Mr. Beast video for 30 seconds, and YouTube's not paying that money. But TikTok, I think, capped people's views, in my opinion. I don't know, because they were realizing they had to pull this money out of thin air.The beta program that is happening now, I don't know. I know some creators have had problems. I feel like my videos actually perform better now that I'm in it. I don't know the math behind it. I don't know if it's because TikTok is running more ads on the platform that they can afford it. I will say that I think that TikTok is gearing up to lean into longer, longer content. I know on their website, they've been testing podcast beta features like I'm nosy, and I go on the TikTok website and I'll just look at little buttons and stuff, what I had to do for my old job, and I can see them rolling out this podcast button, and then they took it down, and then they'll put it back up. And I think they're getting ready to roll that out. So I don't know, but I do think that at least my own experience, the beta program has been great for me financially. I don't think it's going to last.Michael Jamin:Why do you say that? Why won't it last forever?Coco Mocoe:I don't know. I think that I never put any of my eggs in any financial basket as a full-time creator. Now, you never know. And also, one day I could wake up and people could just find my videos not interesting anymore. That's always something that's in the back of my mind, and I have to be okay with that. So,Michael Jamin:Because I wasn't sure if they call it a beta account because it is beta, they're going to change it.Coco Mocoe:Oh, yeah. Because called the creativity beta program, and I think it's maybe only certain creators can be a part of it or something. You have to have 10,000 followers. So yeah, I don't know. At least for me, the last, I think I enrolled in June, and I think we're not allowed to share the exact amounts in the

On this week's episode, I have Writer/Showrunner Max Mutchnick from Will & Grace, The Wonder Years, and many many more. Tune in as we talk about his journey as a writer and what some of his creative goals and hopes are for the future.Show NotesMax Mutchnick on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0616083/Max Mutchnick on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/maxmutchnick/?hl=enMax Mutchnick on Twitter: https://twitter.com/MaxMutchnickMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptMax Mutchnick:By the way, I think Miley Cyrus is the only sitcom actor who is able to move the needle. They push you during sweeps. Can you get a Shatner? If we could get Shatner on Big Bang. I know we'll write, that's probably not a good example because it probably worked. But for the most part, shows just get what they get. They always get what they get. It doesn't matter. These co-stars and these, none of that mattered,Michael Jamin:Right?Max Mutchnick:Is it funny? And do you like the people? Do you like the people? Do you like what? They like the world of it?Michael Jamin:You're listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity. I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts.Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode. Today, I have a wonderful guest that no one deserves to hear. And yet, as a gift, if you're driving your car, pull over, you're going to want to hear this guy, this man and his writing partner, they are responsible for literally one of the biggest hits in the modern era. I'm talking about Will and Grace. This is the co-creator of Will and Grace Max. Much Nick, but lemme tell you what else he's done. All right. It's not just that. I'm going to run through his profile for a second and then I promise I'll let him get a word in edgewise. One word's Dennis Miller show. He was right around the Dennis Miller Show, the Wonder Years Good advice, the single Guy Dream on co-creator of Boston Common Co-creator of Good Morning, Miami Co-creator of Twins, co-creator of Four Kings. This guy's got a lot of work done. Shit, my dad says. Co-creator, partners co-Creator clipped, co-creator, and of course Will and Grace Max, welcome to the show. And let me tell you why this is so meaningful to me to have you hereMax Mutchnick:And me too, just to get an award in.Michael Jamin:Okay? I wonder if,Max Mutchnick:And by the way, those credits were in no particular order.Michael Jamin:Well, it is the IMDB order.Max Mutchnick:It's a weird order, but I'm still thrilled to be here. So I'm going to let you keep going because I like all this.Michael Jamin:Everyone loves having smoked Blunt.Max Mutchnick:It's fantastic.Michael Jamin:Let me tell you why it's so meaningful, because one of the very first jobs I had in Hollywood, I was a PA on a show called Hearts of Fire a max, and his partner writing partner David, were, I don't know if you guys were staff writers or story editors,Max Mutchnick:I think on Hearts of Fire, we were staff writers. I think we were staff writers. Yeah.Michael Jamin:So I'd get you lunch. That's basically it. But you guys were, you guys were so kind. You always let me in. I come into your office, you'd invite me into your office, which to me felt like a big deal. And you guys were both, to me, you were the epitome of what a comedy writer is supposed to be like larger than life, charismatic, funny, ball busting, but also just, I don't know, just energetic and enthusiastic and bursting with creativity and to be around you guys threeMax Mutchnick:Seconds away from tears at all times.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Oh yeah, thatMax Mutchnick:Too. But I mean, we maybe didn't show that to you, but again, I hate to interrupt you when you're saying all this nice stuff.Michael Jamin:Well, I do remember one time, David, I was sitting with you and he's like, what have you heard? I'm like, what have I heard? What do you hear? I'm like, dude, you guys are the only people who talk to me. What have I heard? Nothing.Max Mutchnick:That's so good. What have I heard? And I was listening to you, and by the way, it gives me nothing but joy to be here, and I have to do full disclosure. So I start watching you and listening to you, and this is what happens when you get to be 40 57. I said, I'm like, I know him. I have a feeling of love for him. I do not know how we know each other. It's so funny. I couldn't remember the show that we worked on. I couldn't remember the show we worked on. And then I heard you talking about Mike and Maddie. Yes. The other day. And it was, which isn't on my IMDB page.Michael Jamin:It is. I skipped over it. I didn't want to embarrassMax Mutchnick:You. Yeah, no, I'm glad that we can talk about that too. But it all started at Hearts of Fire.I mean, it's just unbelievable. And that was such an incredibly formative time, and it's so interesting to me that you had this experience of us is mean, and by and large, that's what we are. I mean, I always look back on life and I reflect on it, and I'm always happy when I look back on the things that I've done and where I've been and where I'm going and all that stuff. But today, not so much. What do you mean? Well, it's like I'm saying, when I'm in the moment of today, a lot of times I really can get wrapped up in being depressed about the business and where things are. And I am starting to say things that like old people say, and I don't want to, because I always thought I would never do that. I would never say the business isn't like it used to be. But I'mMichael Jamin:Surprised you even feel that way. You've already accomplished so much. I don't think I would ever get to your level of success. I would've stopped long before.Max Mutchnick:I mean, that's nice. And I know that there are people who are in my position who feel like they've done it. And definitely the collision of a career and social justice, which kind of took place with Will and Grace, the idea that we did this thing and that it had a reverberation on another level should be enough. But I am still a guy with ambition and drive, and I still feel like I have more to say, and I'm not spoiled in that sense. I really don't want to be done at this age. And if anything, my ego is in a better place because I can even fantasize about the idea of being in a room that I wasn't running, which is crazy because that's in the middle of my career when it's at that really hot space. It's like, oh no, I could never be in a room that I wasn't in charge of. But that's not how I feel so much. But theMichael Jamin:Hours are so long and exhausting and you're like, sure, I'll work till two in the morning every night. Well,Max Mutchnick:I couldn't. That's the one thing I would don't feel like that is something that ever needs to be the case. I'm way into having dinner with my family, and I feel like it's after 10:00 PM it's diminishing returns. I actually think after 8:00 PM it's diminishing returns because emotionally you get so your skin starts to break out. You're eating out of styrofoam, and it's just not, it's so bad for where you are. You have to just love the fucking show you're on. Can I say bad word? YouMichael Jamin:Can say, sure. You can say show.Max Mutchnick:You have to love where you are so much to be working late or own. ButMichael Jamin:How did you keep, were the hours good on Will and Grace?Max Mutchnick:Yes. Because we've run a meritocracy and we always have, and that is the best idea will out. So I don't care if it comes from a LB like Michael Jamin or if it comes from John Acquaintance, wherever the best idea and wherever the most honest idea that's organic to the characters comes, and that's the one we're going with. And I'm very, I think one of the things you master or you have to master to be a showrunner that works well and runs a tight ship is the ability to say no quickly and without a lot of ting. So I'm going to say no, and I'm going to say it quickly, and it's going to feel like it hits you hard, and maybe it does. But in order for us to run a tight ship, that's just the way that it has to go. Famously, one of the best showrunners of all time, David Crane, I guess really, it was very democratic and everybody got to talk and pitch, and he didn't cut things off fast. I mean, sometimes there's a German there and you've got to find it and tease it out and stuff like that. But for the most part, immediately, no, that's not the way that we're going. And no, that's not the way the character.Michael Jamin:And they had long hours in that show,Max Mutchnick:Very, very long hours. They famously worked really late. And I was also listening to you the other day talk about those schools of,Michael Jamin:And that's what I was going to get to.Max Mutchnick:Yeah. And you could say that you talked about, there's the Friends school. I think there's also the Diane English strain. Did you mention that one?Michael Jamin:No, I did. I only really mentioned the one that I thought I came from, I think I came from, which was Frazier. Cheers Taxi. Right.Max Mutchnick:And I call that that's the David Lloyd's, I mean,Michael Jamin:And Chris Lloyd, yeah. Okay. What would you say your lineage would be then? And do you agree with that?Max Mutchnick:Yes, I did. I agreed with everything you said. I mean, my lineage is actually, it's a must see TV sound. It's an NBC, it comes down, but that's really the friend sound. And I come from that because my first real job was on Dream on which Martin David created. And then I came in late. David and I came in late on that show, but I also come from the Diane English School because Michael Patrick King was such a giant influence in my sound,Michael Jamin:And that was good advice or whatMax Mutchnick:Good advice. But he had come from Murphy Brown. Right, of course. So if you worked at Murphy Brown, you prayed at the altar and English. I mean, but those friends people, they just spawned so much, soMichael Jamin:Much. But you don't run the show the way they did, though.Max Mutchnick:Not at all. No, not at all. Yeah. We learned as much on shows from what not to do than from what to do. The benefit of being on shows where there, it's just, and I'm not using David Crane as an example because I've never been in a room with him, but we have been in rooms where either we weren't used or there was just endless talk that went absolutely nowhere and the decisions weren't made to just, that's good. That's it. Put it up on the board. You can get there very fast and not like there is a famous school that I don't want to talk about that it's good enough. It's good enough. It's good. Enough's not what I'm talking about. I don't do, it's good enough. But there is a world of shows that's run with that ethos.Michael Jamin:See, I thought one of the first, the advice that we got when we started running shows was I think it was Steve Levitan who said, just pick away, even if it's wrong, pick away. Yes. Or you lose the room.Max Mutchnick:Yes. I mean, it's like you can fu around forever about, oh, what you want to do with your life. I don't necessarily know that this was what I was going to do, but it happened and I went for it, and I got rewarded at a certain point. I feel like if you get rewarded in something that you're doing within six months to 12 months, stay there.Michael Jamin:Were you running a show that wasn't your own, it was your first job at, or No,Max Mutchnick:I'm I'm rare. I'm rare in that regard that I was at Emerson in college, and my dear friend was a comic named Anthony Clark. And Anthony called me and said, they're making shows now in la and there's a company that's very focused on writers who have strong relationships with standup comics. And the company was Castle Rock. And Larry David was just making Seinfeld at that time. And the guy that ran the company with Rob Reiner was a wonderful man named Glenn Paddick. And he gave us our first break, but we had to go into Warren Littlefields office as these young guys and argue for why would I ever give a show on this golden network to two guys that have never done the job before? You've never run a show.Excuse me. I was on single guy. So I mean, I had worked, but I had never run a show. The first time I ran a show and I wasn't even close to running a show. I was a co-producer. And I went in there and I said to him after I got David Cohan a white shirt with a collar like, you have no idea. The Prince of a collar and a what? The difference that it makes put on a goddamn buttoned up shirt. And we go and we sit in there and I say to Mr. Littlefield, who I owe a great deal to, if you give me the keys to the car, I promise not to scratch the car. And if I scratch the car, you can take the keys away. You can bring in whoever you want. They can oversee me, but just give me, literally give me a week, give me a show, and I already know what to do and not to do, and I'll run this thing the right way.Michael Jamin:Wait, this was before you wrote the pilot? This was just to get the chance to,Max Mutchnick:We had written the pilot and they wanted to make it. Oh, okay. And then they said to our agents, or they said to Glenn Pad, Nick, these guys have no experience. You've got to go get showrunners. And I was just so anti the idea that someone was going to creatively be open, and I asked for the meeting and I begged him, and I kind of tell that story. And the whole truth of that story is a day or two before he went to our agent and said, I want someone at that table read who runs a show. I want an experienced showrunner in case at the pilot table read, they fall apart. And God bless the writing team of Roberto, Roberto Bebe and Carl Fink, even Fink, I think. And I could be getting that wrong, and I hope someone calls us out on it. But anyway, those guys were so cool. And they sat at the table read, and we got our notes, and then they walked up to us on the stage where we were shooting the show on Radford, and they were like, you got this boys, we'll see you later. And we never saw again. Really. And then we were show running.Michael Jamin:Did you bring top heavy writers to the firstMax Mutchnick:David's sister who wasn't the superstar,Michael Jamin:Right. That she's nowMax Mutchnick:WasMichael Jamin:I'm talking about your first staff I'm talking about.Max Mutchnick:Yes, I know. Yes. Really. And I don't know who the third one was. I remember there being, it was a mini room before. It was self-imposed before it was imposed on us. And it was just this very tiny group because David and I didn't know how to ate and do all that. And we figured we would do all of the heavy lifting, which was not possible. And we eventually brought in Carrie Lizer, but we started with a very, very tiny group of writers and just crawled our way through.Michael Jamin:Wow. Yes. It's cool. Should we spend the next 59 minutes talking about the single guy, or should we continue talking aboutMax Mutchnick:Your No, no. Can't talk about that show. But it was really cool to work with Ernest Borgne, and I'll just put it to you. Yes. What is the, I'm going to ask you a trivia question.Michael Jamin:JohnnyMax Mutchnick:What?Michael Jamin:Johnny was his name?Max Mutchnick:Yes. Wasn't it? Yes. I went to high school with him, so that's not, and his dad was Johnny Silverman's father was David Cohen's rabbi in real life. Oh, wow. But I mean, we lived in an industry town. That's what it was. But no, Ernest Borg nine, in addition to having a wife that was a cosmetics had of cosmetics Dynasty, Tova nine was the name of all the lotions and potions. Earnest Hemmingway, little known Borg. What?Michael Jamin:Borgnine, not Hemmingway. Not Hemmingway.Max Mutchnick:Shit, that would be so bad. Ernest Borgne had the best collection of what? Does anybody knowMichael Jamin:Doug?Max Mutchnick:No, no, no. He had a good one though.But moving on, he had the best collection of Abraham Lincoln memorabilia because on the weekends, he used to go to Beacons moving and he would sell off the dregs of whatever was left in a truck that people didn't pick up. And one time he went and he bought a painting, and it was of Abraham Lincoln, and he takes it to wherever, Sotheby's or Heritage, whatever he did. And it turns out to be one of only two portraits ever painted of Abraham Lincoln while he was in office. Wow. That started this epic collection. We've digressed into such boring stuff. And I blame you. IMichael Jamin:Blame you. I brought up,Max Mutchnick:You're running this room. You could cut me off at any point.Michael Jamin:No, I could not. But let me ask you this, though. You've created so many shows, and obviously the writers are the same. So what is it, why was Will Grace, why that one not the other ones? Why was that one that blew up?Max Mutchnick:Well, I think I have a glitch in my casting programming. I didn't know to second guess myself in the way that I did after Will and Grace. I mean, it's a great question because it is the thing that, if anything, it could be a regret in my life. It's that I haven't made great decisions at crunch time andMichael Jamin:Wait, so you think it was casting decisions, you think, but you don't get to catch.Max Mutchnick:You put it on the page, and then it's these brilliant actors that have to operate in a medium that's not respected, but possibly the hardest form of acting. And there are very, very few people that can do it as well as the ones that we know. And Jim Burrows always says it's lightning in a bottle.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it is.Max Mutchnick:So it's that, and it's less Moonves also being not great to me.Michael Jamin:Well, I mean, I was going to say, every casting decision has been approved by a million other people. It's not like you could, right?Max Mutchnick:I know. And you want to believe it at the time, and you get in there and you sell, and you do your thing. And then sometimes you don't believe in a person that's going into a cast, but Les has got a thing for that person, so they go in there. But by the way, that man gave me a lot of breaks, and he was good to me for a period in my life, but I also think he did some super fucked up things to our shows too. Partners should have stayed on the air, and he took partners off the air too quickly, and no one had done anything like that. And they should have explored a gay guy and a straight guy being best friends. That's an interesting area.Michael Jamin:What is it? But you guys mostly work in sitcom. I know you did some movie work, but is that just the form you wanted to be in? Is there any other itch you have?Max Mutchnick:No, not really. It just kept, I mean, we kept every few years when they say it's back, we want them, let's go to people that know how to make on that list. And I mean, I'm doing it again, by the way, since this strike is over, and I hope that they work.Michael Jamin:What you're taking outMax Mutchnick:Multicam Ideas couple. Yeah. Yeah. We're working on a couple of Multicam right now that I'm really excited about, but I would love to not do it anymore. I would love to not do it anymore.Michael Jamin:What do you mean you'd love to not do it? I don't understand. IMax Mutchnick:Would love to write what I think single camera comedies are, which is a beautiful, when it's done exquisitely. I think it's, if you write Fleabag, that's like the masterpiece.Michael Jamin:It was a masterpiece, but it was a play. I remember watching you go, this is a play.Max Mutchnick:Yeah, but you can't, I don't know. You can't knock it like that. It doesn't, oh,Michael Jamin:It's not a knock. I mean, it's a compliment. I mean, these long monologues, and it's just not done. ButMax Mutchnick:She still was so brilliant that she figured out, she figured something out about how to make great fuckingMichael Jamin:Episodes. Oh, listen, we're on the same page. I was a masterpiece fricking masterpiece. And what I like about it is that it does feel like a play to me. It's really, it's conversational and it's intimate and brave. It's courageous, man. Man.Max Mutchnick:I think it's the final 20 minutes of the second season. I think that it, it'd be hard pressed to find a better single camera comedy ever written. Yeah, I agree. From the moment the priest shows up at her apartment to sleep with her. And I think that goes straight to the end. I don't know. Beat for beat where I've ever seen it, where I've ever watched a better script.Michael Jamin:How do you feel when you watch something like that? What does that do to you? Because you're a professional writer with a huge, great track record. How does that make you feel?Max Mutchnick:I only have that attitude of the more, the merrier. It's only good to me if you're asking me in a coded way, am I ever jealous of somethingMichael Jamin:A little? Yeah.Max Mutchnick:I mean, yeah. Would I like to have created the bear? Sure. Yes. But I'm more proud of Chris store and impressed that I know him, and I love, and I love that that happens. I mean, I get more offended by the bad stuff. I just can't stand the bad stuff, the good stuff. I'm like, God damn, that's exciting. That got made, and somebody left that writer alone and their vision was carried through to the end.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael. If you like my content, and I know you do because listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people like you can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michael jamin.com and now back to What the hell is Michael Jamin talking aboutWill and Grace, you could tune in an episode, and you knew you were in for some big, big laughs every episode. And I don't know, you were inviting these friends into your home every week. That's what it felt like. You were inviting your friends over. And there's an art to that.Max Mutchnick:Yes. And there's an art to picking the best writers that money can buy, which is what Will and Grace always had. I mean, the star power in the writing room at Will and Grace was spectacular. And I mean, to a person, it had the best run of writers, but the only time it went off the rails is if the heart got taken out of a story. And if the heart wasn't there, then the thing didn't hold up. That's right. And so you have to lay a foundation in the first act and make sure that all that stuff is true and real at the beginning. And then you can go kind of wherever you want in the second act. Then you can get nuts and then resolve in a very real way. But if you don't actually start from a true place of, oh my God, I cannot believe you are sleeping with my brother, that hurts me so much. Why? Because you're mine. Whatever that story is, you want to just hit those notes that everybody understands.Michael Jamin:Now, when you rebooted Will and Grace, did you bring back the entire writing stuff?Max Mutchnick:We didn't bring back everybody, but brought back most everybody.Michael Jamin:And what's shocking about that you had this amazing writing staff and that they were available.Max Mutchnick:We had to be patient. We had to work a little bit of magic. And I also think, I mean, it's embarrassing for NBC, but David and I had out of pocket some fees.Michael Jamin:Oh, really? You wanted them that bad?Max Mutchnick:But it's worth it. It's worth it. It's like, oh, you, you're going to stop at 25 k an episode for this wildly talented person and for their integrity, and they need it to be 27 5. It's like, take it out of mine.Michael Jamin:Right.Max Mutchnick:And we had to give you the full truth on that. It was more with crew. With Crew that we did that.Michael Jamin:Did you want your old crew?Max Mutchnick:Yeah. I mean, there are people that you want, you want the show to sound the same and you want,Michael Jamin:What was it like bringing it back though, for you as a creator? ItMax Mutchnick:Was incredible, honestly. It was such an incredible thing. I mean, we brought it back thinking that Hillary Clinton was going to be president. And the twisted irony is that the game show host won the office, but it ended up really giving us stuff to write to, because if you're just preaching to the third that you have, it's like, what's fun about that? ButMichael Jamin:To me, I guess I'm interested in your characters are now much older. And now I wouldn't have thought when Will Grace ended? I'm not really thinking about where they're going to be years from now. I'm just done thinking about them.Max Mutchnick:I know, and it kind of did have a finality to it, but I mean, I've told the story, but the set was at Emerson. How was it? And it was done, and they were done with the installation, and it was getting moved back on a flatbed to la. And my husband and I were in London, and I was bereft about the way the election was going and sitting in the back of a cab, I said to him, if I had the show, I would have Karen training Rosario on a rock climbing wall. I would do a story about, you're going to go back to Mexico, but then you're going to climb back in after you go back. Right. And I just wanted that to see that visual of Shelly Morrison on a rock climbing wall and caring training her, and in response to him, those horrible policies. And Eric said to me, well, honey, why don't you just go do something about it and make it the set's where it is? All the actors are where they are, and they were amenable. Thank God, God bless them for doing that, because it didn't have to go that way. It wasMichael Jamin:Easy.Max Mutchnick:It was much easier than you would think to bring it all back together.Michael Jamin:Right. That's with the rebuilding. That's so interesting. When you guys are coming up with show ideas, I mean, are they just coming to you? Are you always coming up with ideas or is it like, okay, we got to come up with an idea?Max Mutchnick:No, I mean, I'm coming up with ideas all the time until someone pays me and then all of a suddenMichael Jamin:Nothing. Can't thinkMax Mutchnick:Of anything. Yeah. It's like, I don't know. I can't sleep. I mean, do you sleep? I don't turn. My brain doesn't shut off. And so I'm always kind of thinking about stuff. And by the way, we've written some of the things that I love the most that we've ever done. They've never seen the light of day. And I think that one of the little twisted crimes of our industry is the fact that agents and studios, if they have any sense that you've written something ago, that you wrote it back when they don't want to, it's like a loaf of bread or something like that, as opposed to a piece of art that it is still relevant. It still makes sense. These characters are vibrant and exist, but it feels like used goods even if it's never anywhere.Michael Jamin:And so you guys, your partner, you meet every day and you're coming up with ideas, or even when you're not,Max Mutchnick:I'm very good that way. I don't feel like I can stop and I don't want to stop. Dave is arguably a happier person, and he doesn't feel the same desire to beat himself to death. That's what it's, yeah. But we've had a dynamic for mean our daughters are very, very close, which Oh, really? A gift of life for both of us. But always, I mean, I say this in front of him and behind his back, our relationship has that lovely Jerry Lewis and Dean Martin, sort of one of us is in love with the other one, and one of us doesn't care. And Dave's just like, but he's my brother. So he's not like he's going anywhere. But it's just like, stop trying so fucking hard. I get a little sweaty when I don't need to.Michael Jamin:Well, yeah, you've had so much success. It occurred to me. I just remember one time I was over at your place once, I don't remember where you were living, but I remember you had Enya on.Max Mutchnick:It's so crazy. So wait, I'm going to make my relationship to Enya. I'm going to bring it back to writing sitcoms because Okay. My anxiety has always been a present part of who I am and what you referred to as the fun of coming into my office. Yeah, you're right. But it's driven by a kind of anxiety and on, I guess it would've been good advice for Michael Patrick King. I was having such heavy, crazy anxiety. Anxiety to the point of passing out anxiety that I had to go every time we had a break down to my car and listen to Anya on AC cd.Michael Jamin:Is it because you're worried you're going to be fired? Is that whyMax Mutchnick:I just didn't have that? There's a, that very scary moment of existing in a writing room of what your output is. Like Jeff Astrof, by the way, such an incredible writer in a room, such a good room person. But he lives by the thing. If I don't put a joke into that script today, I can't go to bed tonight. And that drives a person. And I just was in these, so you have to get, but Michael Petra king got me a little bit more comfortable with, I listen to you sometimes and I watch you construct comedy on the fly, and I am impressed with it. And I think, what the fuck? Can't I still do that? But I tap into something different. I tap into a different thing because I think life just across the board, other than rape and cancer and Israel is pretty much, everything is funny. And I feel really good about exploring the most uncomfortable truths of my life, and that's where I get the stuff from. But I wasn't there. I wasn't there, and certainly not at the beginning. And Dave Cohan comes from such a pedigree family that it was second nature to him to just construct really clever wordplay and stuff like that. And I was really panicked about that at the beginning.Michael Jamin:Interesting. Because you know that in the room of writers, if I'm going to choose a team of writers and I have eight picks, the first eight are story people, not joke people.Max Mutchnick:And that's that generic question you ask a writer when you interview them. So what do you think you're best at story or, well, really good at story, right? They're really good at story.Michael Jamin:You're good at stories.Max Mutchnick:You can tell a fucking story.Michael Jamin:None of you'reMax Mutchnick:Good. It's crazy. It's crazy how many people can't tell a story or the joke thing of you want to say to people and you don't. It's like, okay, close your eyes. Go to the table, put that joke in the actor's mouth and tell me the response that you hear. Do you actually hear people laughing at those words? Because that's how I always do it. I'm like, and then it becomes second nature. Yeah, that sounds right. They will make ew. She'll make ew funny. That will get a laugh. That will get a laugh. But it's always shocking to me like the clunkiness sometimes that's pitched and it's like, that's not going toMichael Jamin:Work. Yeah. Yeah. How funny. How funny.Max Mutchnick:And if I'm calm and you got time, it's like you can try to get it, but you want a Michael Jamin in your room to just give it to you. Done.Michael Jamin:Oh, give it to me. Done. It's so interesting. Go starting out. I was just a joke guy. And then you won't keep your job long if that's all you understand, right?Max Mutchnick:No, you have to be able to, because you go to that run through and the entire back half of that story falls apart. So you have to be a technician to say, if you do this and you do that, the back half will, as we say, it's an F 12, it will write itself. It never does that, unfortunately. But I will tell you this, speaking of that, during all of this AI and the strike, and my writer's assistant that's been with me for a very long time, and I won't say his name because he hates that he's a writer's assistant, but he's incredible. A friend gave him a Will and Grace, an AI written Will and Grace.Michael Jamin:Oh, andMax Mutchnick:I mean, this is the upsetting part.Michael Jamin:No, don't go there. Don't say any of this. What isMax Mutchnick:It? I know. I mean, but the truth is, it's like, well, if this is what came to me, if I sent a team off, if I sent a group off and I said, Karen and Jack are going to have a garage sale, bring me back that story. I want two, I mean, I'd break the scenes with them, but two scenes of the first act, two scenes in the second act, it's AB story. Bring that back to me. It wasn't like it was so far off.Michael Jamin:Wasn't so far off. So better than staff writer.Max Mutchnick:This isMichael Jamin:Scary.Max Mutchnick:Yeah, no, I know. I mean, I don't know. It's like if it was in front of me, we could even read it, but I don't have it. I don't want to give any credit to that, but I'm going to name drop. But I told that story to Norman Lear at dinner not too long ago, and he told me that someone had done it for him too on, I think it was on all of the Family. And I believe that we agreed that it wasn't an abomination.Michael Jamin:This makes me sick a little bit.Max Mutchnick:Oh, it's sickening. Yeah, completely sickening. Because it calls 246 episodes of Will and Grace. It figures out what those people sound like. I mean, look, if I delivered, I wouldn't deliver it at a table read. It would still, it would be that thing that I was talking about. There wouldn't be laughs. It didn't have, it didn't have heart construction. Yeah, but good enough. Yeah, but it could go right. That's a callback number 56 onMichael Jamin:Callback. Good enough. I posted about James Burrows yesterday about what he said. I dunno if you saw,Max Mutchnick:Oh, I did. And we should talk about that.Michael Jamin:Yeah. What's, because he basically said, and I think it was misinterpreted a little, that there are, there's only about 30 great writers to do sitcoms. And what I think he meant was 30 great showrunners or potential showrunners, not writers. ButMax Mutchnick:Yeah, I absolutely didn't agree with him. And you started to talk about it, and then always, I kind of turn you off about five minutes, but I will say this, it's like you hit on exactly what it is. The reason why we like it is because Multicam are the comfort Food of America. I mean, that is the show. You want your kid, when they come home from school, turn on an episode of friends and watch that thing, and then dinner will be ready and it goes down easy and you love it. You even can know where it's going, and it's still satisfying. But I didn't agree with Jim, and I hope that he was misquoted because I am not sure that it's over because of how much it's actually liked by Go ahead and create. Everybody loves Raymond and I dare America to not want to watch it.Michael Jamin:Well, okay, growing up, there was a show called Small Wonder. It was one of these syndicated whatever. And I would watch that. And I said to my partner recently, I was like, how come we can't get on small wonder? Where are those shows put on Small wonder? I'd rather be happy working on Small Wonder. But they don't exist.Max Mutchnick:Well, no one programs that way anymore. I still believe if someone made the commitment, I mean, they must have papered this out somewhere, but I always think, shit, if I ran a network, I would ask the higher ups. Can I please develop sitcoms from eight to 10, put them on the air, and will you give me a guarantee that I get to put them on the air for two years straight, all four of them? Because it doesn't happen like a movie. It doesn't happen. I mean, you try really hard, but it's a fluke to get anybody to get a pilot off the ground in that a scene. They don't know anybody. Right. It's the hardest thing in the world. But I believe that if Multicam, I believe that they weren't driven by star casting because star casting always fucks up a multicam. Of course, there are examples of big stars that have made shows work like Charlie and Julia even. But I mean, there's that list of names that if we weren't being recorded, I would just say it's all these fucking famous people that aren't funny. AndMichael Jamin:Wait, is it because you think they get executive producer and they give notes and they change it? They make the show what they want it to be, you mean?Max