The Systemic Way

Sezer and Julie

This podcast gives the listener an opportunity to hear conversations with people from the field of systemic psychotherapy. Host Sezer and Julie, two systemic and family psychotherapists, discuss a wide range of topics, theories, practices and experiences with their guests, giving the listener an insight into this disciplines contribution to social change.

Artwork by Arai Drake Creative: http://www.araidrake.com/portfolio/thesystemicway/Music by Rena Paid

We are now being supported by the Association of Family Therapy (AFT).

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サイエンスサイエンス
健康・フィットネス健康・フィットネス
教育教育
社会科学社会科学
メンタルヘルスメンタルヘルス
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The Divided Island - Film as Systemic Intervention: In conversation with filmmakers Cey Sesiguzel, Andreas Tokkallos and guest co-host Dr Emilios Lemoniatis.
01-12-2024
The Divided Island - Film as Systemic Intervention: In conversation with filmmakers Cey Sesiguzel, Andreas Tokkallos and guest co-host Dr Emilios Lemoniatis.
Join us for a compelling exploration of, The Divided Island, a groundbreaking documentary film that delves into the complex history, identity, and shared humanity of Cyprus. In this episode, we sit down with the film’s creators - director Cey Sesiguzel (Turkish Cypriot) and co-producer Andreas Tokkallos (Greek Cypriot) - as they reflect on their journey of collaboration and friendship, the stories that shaped their film, and the ways art can bridge even the deepest divides. We are also joined by Dr Emilios Lemoniatis, a consultant child psychiatrist, systemic psychotherapist and Cypriot Greek who joins us as a special guest host for this special episode. Through our conversation, we unpack the documentary’s key themes: the legacy of division, the impact of generational trauma, the search for missing stories, and the resilience of families caught between history and hope. Together, we ask: What does it mean to be Cypriot today? How can shared cultural strengths and systemic thinking create paths toward healing?Whether you’re familiar with Cyprus’s history or new to its story, this episode offers a thought-provoking dialogue on identity, reconciliation, and the power of storytelling to inspire change.https://www.thedividedisland.com/The Divided Island challenges the often hostility-driven narratives perpetuated by mainstream media, offering instead a pursuit of truth through deeply personal interviews - from those whose lives, homes, and country were torn apart, to the new generation of Cypriots yearning for peaceful reconciliation.  The filmmakers aim to bring an unbiased, shared understanding of a complex issue and foster a narrative towards a future peaceful solution to the ‘Cyprus problem’.
Songs of Hope and Change: David Denborough - a journey with the communities of Narrative Therapy
17-11-2024
Songs of Hope and Change: David Denborough - a journey with the communities of Narrative Therapy
In this episode, we sit down with David Denborough, a leading figure in narrative therapy and community work, to explore the fascinating journey that brought him to this transformative approach. David shares the early influences that connected his values and beliefs with narrative ideas, offering insight into the foundational stories that shaped his practice.We dive into his relationship with the Dulwich Centre, the renowned hub of narrative therapy, uncovering how he became part of this vibrant community and the ways it bridges local and global communities. David reflects on the bi-directional flow of influence between the Dulwich Centre and the communities it engages with—work that has taken him from Australia to the UN, and to partnerships with Aboriginal communities, Ncazelo Ncube, and projects in Palestine.Through projects like Tree of Life, Team of Life, and Kite of Life, David illustrates how narrative practices can transform lives and empower communities. We discuss the core ideas—what David calls the “spirits of practice”—that guide his work, including the life of stories, storytelling rights, reclaiming our lives, and challenging normality.Finally, David shares his hopes for the future, envisioning how narrative practices can continue to inspire activism, resistance, and community building. This is a must-listen episode for anyone curious about the intersection of therapy, community, and social justice.
Race, Power, Privilege and the Psychology of Otherness: With Dr Dwight Turner
27-10-2024
Race, Power, Privilege and the Psychology of Otherness: With Dr Dwight Turner
In this episode with speak with Dr Dwight Turner who shares his thoughts, ideas and reflections on his two books Intersections of privilege and otherness in counselling and psychotherapy: Mockingbird (2021) and The Psychology of Supremacy: Imperium (2023). Dwight shares his personal stories around his early life, career and training as a psychotherapist weaving through themes of race, power, intersectionality and privilege. He talks about the creation of otherness and ways to deepen our understanding and relationship to the concepts so that we can develop anti-oppressive and safe spaces for people we meet, live and work with. He invites us into an exploration of interdental difference, alongside discussing the deeper unconscious understanding of difference, and how privilege plays a role in the construction of otherness. Dwight shares from the filed of post-colonial theory, feminist discourse, amongst other theoretical areas. BIODr Dwight Turner is Course Leader on the Humanistic Counselling and Psychotherapy Course at the University of Brighton, a PhD Supervisor at their Doctoral College, a psychotherapist and supervisor in private practice. An activist, writer and public speaker on issues of race, difference and intersectionality in counselling and psychotherapy, Dr Turner can be contacted via his website www.dwightturnercounselling.co.uk and can be followed on Twitter at @dturner300.References: Turner, D. (2021). Intersections of privilege and otherness in counselling and psychotherapy: Mockingbird. Routledge.Turner, D. (2023). The Psychology of Supremacy: Imperium. Taylor & Francis.
A Tale of Three Sisters: A Movie Analysis from Critically Informed Family Therapy Perspective with Ozlem Kose PhD
01-09-2024
A Tale of Three Sisters: A Movie Analysis from Critically Informed Family Therapy Perspective with Ozlem Kose PhD
In this episode we are joined by Ozlem Kose PhD to discuss an article she co-wrote with Fatma Arıcı-Şahin & Ahmet Abakay, A Tale of Three Sisters: A Movie Analysis from Critically Informed Family Therapy Perspective. Journal of Feminist Family Therapy, 33(4), 315-329 (Kose et al 2019).Özlem Köse, an associate with Couple and Family Therapy Montreal, holds a Ph.D. in medical family therapy and is a registered clinical counsellor boasting 15 years’ experience in individual, couple and family therapy. Ozlem invites us to talk with her about the film A Tale of Three Sisters (2019) by acclaimed Turkish film maker Emin Alper. The film follows the stories of three young girls who are taken from rural, central Anatolia to work for affluent families as foster children. We discuss systemic themes such as intergenerational patterns, roles, gender, culture and power and how these ideas are woven into this intimate family drama.Ozlem bio:Özlem Köse, an associate with Couple and Family Therapy Montreal, holds a Ph.D. in medical family therapy and is a registered clinical counsellor boasting 15 years’ experience in individual, couple and family therapy. With a strong background in trauma-informed and evidence-based systemic therapy, Özlem counsels individuals and couples on issues such as relationship conflict, separation and divorce, relational traumas (e.g., C-PTSD, emotional neglect and abuse), infidelity, management of chronic illness as a couple, couples’ sexual desire discrepancy and early childhood trauma. Özlem has extensive training and supervision in Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT), which is one of the only scientifically validated couple therapy approaches.Besides her clinical work with couples and adults, Özlem has a background in school counselling and enjoys working with teens on a variety of issues. She is also trained as a behavioural health specialist, helping individuals and couples improve their overall health and achieve their behavioural health goals such as weight loss, exercise and illness management. Özlem works in English and Turkish.Paper reference:Köse, Ö., Arıcı-Şahin, F., & Abakay, A. (2021). A Tale of Three Sisters: A Movie Analysis from Critically Informed Family Therapy Perspective. Journal of Feminist Family Therapy, 33(4), 315-329.Film:A Tale of Three Sisters (2019)Original title: Kiz KardeslerDirector: Emin Alper
Beyond Single Stories of Trauma to Narratives of Survival and Strength: With Nsimire Aimee Bisimwa
17-06-2024
Beyond Single Stories of Trauma to Narratives of Survival and Strength: With Nsimire Aimee Bisimwa
Nsimire Aimee Bisimwa is a  Highly Specialist Systemic & Family Psychotherapist, course lead & lecturer at Essex University & Tavistock Centre and visiting lecturer at University College London. Our home is the theme for Refugee Week in 2024. In this special episode, we are dedicating our discussion to exploring and highlighting the crucial work being done to support refugees and young asylum seekers. We have the privilege of speaking with Nsimire, a leading professional in the field, who will share her direct experiences in building supportive relationships with refugees and also challenging the single stories that can dominate the fields description of refugee mental health. Nsimire will take us through her personal journey and deep commitment to this work, revealing how she creates a sense of home for those she helps. Her approach is deeply informed by narrative practice, teamwork, and a culturally attuned perspective. She will discuss the key considerations for effective support, emphasizing the importance of understanding each individual's unique story and cultural background.Join us as we delve into Nsimire's impactful work and learn about the strategies and insights that enable her to foster a welcoming and supportive environment for refugees and young asylum seekers. This episode is a tribute to the resilience and strength of those who seek a new home and the professionals dedicated to helping them find it.Link to Refugee week:https://refugeeweek.org.uk/
Systemic Interventions/Psychotherapy - Two Sides of the Same Coin?: With Umberta Telfener
27-05-2024
Systemic Interventions/Psychotherapy - Two Sides of the Same Coin?: With Umberta Telfener
In this episode we are joined by EFTA President, Umberta Telfener, as she shares with us her legacy and connection to the development of the systemic field. She talks about her relationships with some of the pioneers in Systemic Family Therapy across the globe. We hear her passionate views on combining systemic interventions and psychotherapy as we explore the integral relationship between them. Umberta also discusses first and second order change, systemic complexity, collusion and utilising systemic thinking to create meaningful interventions for people. Bio:Umberta Telfener, health & clinical psychologist, teacher of the Milan systemic family therapy school (Boscolo & Cecchin), actual President of EFTA, former adjunct Professor at the post graduate School of Health Psychology of the University of Roma La Sapienza, she supervises Institutions and Community work and is in private practice since 1980.She is one of the senior systemic professionals and thinkers in Italy.  In the mid ’70 she met all the pioneers and since then she teaches systemic thinking in different settings. She had among her direct teachers Heinz von Foerster, Lynn Hoffman, Salvator Minuchin, Jay Haley, Carl Whitaker, Carlos Slusky, Bralio Montalvo, Harry Aponte, Luigi Boscolo e Gianfranco Cecchin.She teaches at the Health Psychology Post Graduate training of the University of Roma La Sapienza, both Epistemology and systemic thinking and Systemic practice and interventions. She works as a supervisor in different settings both public and private and has written many books and articles in the Italian language with the most well known publishing companies, among which Ammalarsi di Psicoterapia 1995 (Getting sick from psychotherapy), Sistemica un dizionario sulla complessità 2003 (Systemics, a dictionary on complexity, with the direct supervision of Heinz von Foerster, Bollati Boringhieri). She has published with Bollati Boringhieri La psicoterapia come pratica riflessiva (Psychotherapy as a reflexive practice) and with Cortina editore Learning Context, Practices to enter in new settings. She has been past president of the Italian Society for Systemic Therapy and Research (SIRTS) and has been an extern examiner at the Kensington Consultation Centre of London.
Collective Care, "Sumud" and Resistance: With Dr. Yoa'd Ghanadry-Hakim
06-05-2024
Collective Care, "Sumud" and Resistance: With Dr. Yoa'd Ghanadry-Hakim
In today's episode we have the privilege to speak with Dr. Yoa'd Ghanadry-Hakim  who is a clinical psychologist, human rights activist and supervisor and has been active in the field of mental health in Palestine for 25 years.  Dr Yoa’d joins us to talk about her experiences of working in Palestine and generously shares her professional journey and the many factors that have contributed to her development through the context of living in an occupied land. Yoa'd invites us to reconsider the dominance of the Western approach of psychology in a collectivist society and to recognise the value and contribution of looking at trauma through a decolonising lens and developing local approaches to psychology. We hear about the Palestinian cultural value of sumud (steadfast perseverance) and how its presence shapes and supports families and  colleagues to find hope to carry on. This intimate conversation looks at the many ways that politics is present in our practice and the small acts of resistance that can empower, support and offer ways to reshape how we work.Bio:Dr. Yoa'd Ghanadry-Hakim is a clinical psychologist and supervisor and has been active in the field of mental health in Palestine for 25 years. Specializing in trauma, abuse, and severe mental health problems, she works at the Palestinian Counseling Center in occupied Jerusalem and the West Bank and is head of the Arab Union of Psychologists, Israel. A human rights activist, Yoa’d has been a technical consultant for the Psychosocial Support Program for Palestinian Refugees, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, in the Near East, West Bank, and is a founding and steering committee member of the Palestinian Global Mental Health Network.For more info:https://www.pgmhn.org/
Gender, Sexuality and Adventures Beyond the Binary: In conversation with Amanda Middleton
21-04-2024
Gender, Sexuality and Adventures Beyond the Binary: In conversation with Amanda Middleton
Amanda Middleton joins us to talk in depth about her keynote speech/article, Adventures in time, gender and therapeutic practice. Embracing a queer systemic way of working with gender expansive families. Amanda shares with us ways to understand gender and sexuality that are away from binary discourses and we discuss why this matters for inclusive therapeutic practice. She takes us on an adventure about her work, projects and passions on utilising a queer systemic approach that is steeped with theory, history and insights to grow our knowledge in this important area.Topics covered include:- ⁠decolonising gender- ⁠depathologising our practice in regards to gender & sexuality - relational homelessness - ⁠systemic tools to address gender & sexuality - ⁠chromonormativityAbout Amanda Middleton:Amanda has over 18 years of experience providing counseling and psychotherapy to a diverse range of people and groups. She qualified as a Psychologist in Australia, and as a Family and Systemic Psychotherapist in the UK and works primarily with gender, sex and sexuality specialising within the LGBTQI communities and LGBTQI families. Amanda has worked in the NHS ( CAMHS), Social Care and private therapy fields. Working as a specialist in the areas of sex and sexuality, dual diagnosis (mental health and substance misuse), homelessness, HIV and sexual health, drug and alcohol use, and domestic violence.
Social Constructionism - Origins, Development and Future in Systemic Practice: With Kenneth J. Gergen Ph.D
07-04-2024
Social Constructionism - Origins, Development and Future in Systemic Practice: With Kenneth J. Gergen Ph.D
This episode focuses on social constructionism with one of the leading figures in the field, Kenneth J. Gergen Ph.D. We hear about how radical the ideas were at the time of its conceptiopn and the people who believed in its contribution to psychology and supported its evolution. Ken tells us his personal and professional stories of the history and development of his key ideas within social constructionism alongside some of the challenges when sharing with the wider field.  Ken discussed the key elements of its application in the therapeutic context and his futures hopes. Bio (taken from Taos Institute website)Kenneth J. Gergen, Ph.D., is a founding member, President of the Taos Institute and Chair of the Board, and the Mustin Professor of Psychology at Swarthmore College. Gergen also serves as an Honorary Professor at the University of Buenos Aires. Gergen received his BA from Yale University and his PhD from Duke University, and has taught at Harvard University and Heidelberg University. He has been the recipient of two Fulbright research fellowships, the Geraldine Mao fellowship in Hong Kong, along with Fellowships from the Guggenheim Foundation, the Japanese Society for the Promotion of Science, and the Alexander Humboldt Stiftung. Gergen has also been the recipient of research grants from the National Science Foundation, the Deutsche Forschungsgemeinschaft, and the Barra Foundation. He has received honorary degrees from Tilburg University and Saybrook Institute, and is a member of the World Academy of Art and Science. Gergen is a major figure in the development of social constructionist theory and its applications to practices of social change. He also lectures widely on contemporary issues in cultural life, including the self, technology, postmodernism, the civil society, organizational change, developments in psychotherapy, educational practices, aging, and political conflict. Gergen has published over 300 articles in journals, magazines and books, and his major books include Toward Transformation in Social Knowledge, The Saturated Self, Realities and Relationships, and An Invitation to Social Construction. With Mary Gergen, he published an electronic newsletter, Positive Aging (www.positiveaging.net) distributed to 20,000 recipients. Gergen has served as the President of two divisions of the American Psychological Association, the Division on Theoretical and Philosophical Psychology, and on Psychology and the Arts. He has served on the editorial board of 35 journals, and as the Associate Editor of The American Psychologist and Theory and Psychology. He has also served as a consultant to Sandoz Pharmaceutical Company, Arthur D. Little, Inc, the National Academy of Science, Trans-World Airlines, Bio-Dynamics, and Knight, Gladieux & Smith, Inc.
Integrative Systemic Practice: A Contemporary Framework with Dr Kate Owen and Dr Leonie White
24-03-2024
Integrative Systemic Practice: A Contemporary Framework with Dr Kate Owen and Dr Leonie White
In this episode we discuss the Queensland Institute of Family Therapy's (QIFT) meta framework for integrative practice. Founders, Kate and Leonie talk about how practitioners are embracing and integrative approach and their experience of developing the framework. Topics covered include:The main elements of the framework How integrative differs from traditional approaches in family therapy What it contributes to the wider systemic field Throughout the conversation we hear about case examples & teaching points about the model.For any training enquiries related to:• Key Skills in Family Therapy• Working Safely with Families and Trauma• Systemic Integrative Practice Masterclass• Trauma-Informed Care For Midwives• Trauma-Informed Care In The Emergency Department• 3 Hour Trauma-Informed Care lecturePlease note that from June 30th 2024 QIFT will no longer be operating but you can contact Kate & Leonie directly to enquire about the framework or their practice.You are welcome to contact Kate directly (drkateowen@gmail.com or 0408528380) for any training enquiries related to Working Systemically with Stakeholders and Live Supervision: Systemic Supervision In Action.You are free to contact Kate for any other training in family therapy, trauma, staff wellbeing, student welllbeing and anxiety, and other various topics.  For more information please visit www.drkateowen.com.  You can also stay in touch by joining her mailing list and following on social media platforms such as:Instagram https://www.instagram.com/drkateowenFacebook https://www.facebook.com/drkateowenLinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/drkateowenYouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSbcwwK4FFb4MVxxZ6KMqwQAfter June 30th you are welcome to contact Leonie directly (drleoniewhite@gmail.com or 0401002544) for any training enquiries related to Systems and Stories: A Narrative Therapy Approach to Meaning Making and Change, and Picture This: Harnessing the Therapeutic Power of Genograms, as well as any other training in family therapy, trauma and various topics.For more information on other training Leonie provides you can visit her website https://www.drleoniewhite.com/community-events-and-training  and you can also stay in touch with Leonie by subscribing to her monthly Resource Letter www.drleoniewhite.com and via her Professional Social Media and LinkedInhttps://www.facebook.com/drleoniewhitehttps://www.instagram.com/drleoniewhitehttps://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-leonie-white-9a915489
Trauma, Resilience and Culture - Systemic Work with Refugee Couples and Families: Dr Shadi Shahnavaz
25-02-2024
Trauma, Resilience and Culture - Systemic Work with Refugee Couples and Families: Dr Shadi Shahnavaz
This episode is about Shadi Shahnavaz’s insightful book “Working systematically with refugee families and couples: exploring trauma, resilience and culture” We discuss areas such as:-Effects of trauma-Seeking therapeutic help-Cross cultural therapy-Refugees lived experiences-Frameworks for engaging & supporting families and couplesShadi guides us through her personal and professional journey of working in this area and enlightens her process with case studies and resonances to develop compassionate & effective practiceBio:Dr Shadi Shahnavaz is a social worker and systemic therapist. She has worked for over 25 years with complex families and individuals and has extensive experience in working with refugees. Shahnavaz presents and provides training on attachment theory, working with trauma, and working systemically.Book reference: Shahnavaz, S. (2022). Working systemically with refugee couples and families: exploring trauma, resilience and culture. Taylor & Francis.Reviews:'Dr Shahnavaz is to be commended for writing such a useful book, especially during these times when the phenomenon of refugees is so prominent in our societies. It is unique because of its specific focus on couples and families and its systemic approach, examining the interactive implications of these forms of adversities. The inclusion of relevant clinical material brings to life the complexities of these painful realities, whilst it also indicates ways of effectively addressing them. The book will be a valuable resource both for specialists and for the general public.'Renos K Papadopoulos, PhD, Professor at the University of Essex, UK. Author of Involuntary Dislocation: Home, Trauma, Resilience and Adversity-Activated Development (Routledge, 2021)'An important and timely contribution to the clinical work with highly traumatized refugees and their families—very moving, personal and instructive! Essential reading for all practitioners listening to seemingly unspeakable narratives...'Dr E. Asen, Consultant Psychiatrist, University College London & Anna Freud National Centre for Children and Families, UK'At one level, Dr. Shahnavaz’s honest new book is an academic text, with a comprehensive review of literature and an examination of the contemporary political and social contexts in which refugee lives are embedded. At the heart of the book are compelling real-life accounts of refugee couples’ experiences and journeys, woven in with the author’s reflexive experiences of migration. It is these narratives that transport the book from an academic text to a complex hybrid between historical biography and autobiography. The book is written in a lucid and accessible style and includes a helpful overview and critique of therapeutic interventions for refugee couples and families. It skillfully examines the controversial subject of whether cultural and linguistic matching between the family and therapist is necessary for the therapeutic relationship. The book is a "must read" for students and teachers of refugee studies; for clinicians working with refugees; for service providers and policy makers; for service users; and for all those who are interested in culture, couple and family relationships and the impact of transgenerational trauma.'Dr Reenee Singh, Consultant Family and Systemic Psychotherapist & Founding Director, London Intercultural Couples Centre at the Child and Family Practice, UK
Becoming and Being: Harry Aponte On The Person Of The Therapist
14-02-2024
Becoming and Being: Harry Aponte On The Person Of The Therapist
In this episode we speak with the much respect Dr Harry Aponte about his career, contributions and process of becoming and being a therapist.  He shares with us stories oh how he became interested in systemic practice and his early days in structural systemic family therapy. We take a deep dive with Harry as he discussed the key ideas that informs his approach, the important people who have helped shape his practice and the values that he holds in his therapeutic work. This episodes explores structural approaches, the use of self and working with marginalised communities. About Dr Harry Aponte:Dr. Harry Aponte has made significant contributions in the area of Family Therapy. An Afro-Caribbean male, Dr. Aponte’s work has been crucial in building better systems of care for those considered “underprivileged.” As a trailblazer in the mental health field, Dr. Aponte fought to change the narrative around African American and Hispanic American families from the stigmatizing term “disorganized” to that of resourceful.While working in the “inner city” of Philadelphia, Dr. Aponte pioneered the idea of eco-structural therapy. This move shifted the stigmatization of early mental health practices for those who identified as BIPOC, and influenced a form of therapy that accounted for the many socioeconomic and racial factors that influenced these families. This shift helped to coordinate efforts to build collaborative practices across multiple disciplines in hopes of providing the best services for at risk families. Dr. Aponte has continued to influence the field of family therapy and mental health, especially for those who identify as BIPOC, through his many articles, books, talks, and teaching of therapists across five decades.Resources:https://apontetraininginstitute.org/
Future Directions of JFT and Why Research Matters: In Conversation with Dr Sarah Helps
11-02-2024
Future Directions of JFT and Why Research Matters: In Conversation with Dr Sarah Helps
Editor of The Journal of Family Therapy (JFT), Sarah Helps joins us to discuss the history, contribution & value of JFT. Sarah shares her passion for research and its important role in the systemic field. She shows how research can support practice through developing knowledge and deepen our understanding of process. She talks us through how to get involved with the journal and debunks  fear of creating meaningful research. The Journal of Family Therapy advances the understanding and treatment of human relationships constituted in systems such as couples, families, professional networks, and wider groups, by publishing articles on theory, research, clinical practice and training.Bio:Dr Helps is a consultant clinical psychologist and systemic psychotherapist. She started working at King's College Hospital after qualifying in 1995 and has recently returned to lead the growing paediatric psychology service.She teaches on aspects of systemic research and practice at the Tavistock and the Institute of psychiatry, psychology and neurosciences. Over the course of two decades, her research interests have focused on hospital, staff, stress, parental adaptation to childhood illness, and more recently on how communication between clinicians and families works in a variety of healthcare settings. She is interested in growing just, evidence-based systemic practice informed by a plethora of forms of research and enquiry and supporting research that is born from genuine co-production between research-minded practitioners and the people with whom we work.Dr Helps was appointed as JFT editor in 2023.Sarah Helps, BSc, MSc, DclinPsy, DProfConsultant Clinical Psychology / Lead for Paediatric PsychologyKing's College Hospital, UKEmail: JOFTedoffice@wiley.comTwitter: @Editor_JFT